[109055] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Rendered fat
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Mon Feb 20 08:31:25 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2017 08:30:51 -0500
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On 2/20/2017 12:53 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:
> QeS, bIQIj 'e' DaQoy DaneHmo', choquvmoH.
/Because you want to hear that you explain.../ I think you meant *jIQIj.*
> vaj vuDwIj vIQIjmeH vIvum 'e' Daqotlhbej.
>
> wa'DIch jIQIjbe', pIj Sojvam ngachlu'pu'mo' 'ej Sojvam wuqlaHmo' marq
> 'oqranD neH. tagha' wuq marq 'oqranD 'e' vIjInqu', jIjatlhpu'.
> wuqchugh, ramchoH Hoch latlh vuD.
>
> jIQIjchoHpa', paghDIch mIw vIja'. taghwI' jIHtaHvIS, jIngongmeH
> jIngong vIneH. Dayaj'a'? wotDaq DIpDaq je mojaqmey vImutlh ngugh vIneH.
> naQjej rurmo' wot, ghantoH <chuH> vIlo'. vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej
> ?chuHlu'wI' 'e' SIbI' vItlhoj.
*vay'e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej *chuHlu'wI' SIbI' 'e' vItlhoj*
or
*SIbI' vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oHSbej *chuHlu'wI' 'e' vItlhoj*
> lughqu'law', 'a wa'DIch DujwIj vIvoqmo' neH. meq vIngu'laHbe'pu'.
This is probably not a good place for *-pu'.* You're describing your
state of mind at a particular time, not a completed event or state of
mind. That state might be over now, but in the narrative, it isn't. It's
just what your state was.
> vay' vIHaDnISbogh vItu'pu'. <yIvoq 'ach yI'ol>, qar'a'?
>
> cha' mojaqvam luDuDlu' 'e' tuch'a' TKD, ngugh 'e' vISIv. TKD 3.2.2
> vIlaDpu'. wotDaq <-wI'> chellu'DI', DIp moj wot 'ej mu'tlheghDaq
> wotvam tlha'bogh DIp'e' 'oS DIpvam chu' 'e' QIj TKD. vaj chuHbogh vay'
> 'oS chuHwI'.
> Hoch QIjbe' TKD. DIp nap chenmoH wot <-wI'> je 'e' nughojmoH TKD, 'ach
> <-wI'> latlh mojaq je ghajchugh wot, qaSbogh wanI' 'angbe' TKD. 'a
> qay' <-lu'> neH 'e' wIloylaH. ghu' le' 'oHba' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.
>
> nItebHa' qaSlaHbe' wot, <-lu'>, <-wI'> je lutob mu'mey'e' lo'pu'bogh
> marq 'oqranD net Qub. TKD 3.2.2 qontaHvIS, ghu'vam qelbe'taH 'e' vIQub.
>
> cha' meqmo' ghu' le' 'oH wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.
>
> wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha'laH pagh DIp. meq
> wa'DIch'e' 'oH ngoDvam'e'.
>
> wot tlha'bogh DIpvaD per vIHutlh. naQjej rurmo' wot, DIpvamvaD
> <chuHwI' DIp> vIper. wot nungbogh DIpvaD <DoS DIp> vIper.
>
> wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, moHaq pIm poQ wotvam je. meq cha'DIch 'oH
> ngoDvam'e'.
> DoS DIpvaD chuHwI' DIp DamoH rom chut.
In English passive voice, this is true. *-lu'* is not English passive
voice. In Klingon, when *-lu'* is added, the object remains the object.
> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom chut je,
/The rule of accord envisions a new, hidden target noun/?
> vaj DoS DIpvam chu'vaD <ghaH> <'oH> ghap**qellaH vay' 'e' ghet moHaq
> le' DIlo'bogh.
*lughet*
> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam chu'
> tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp 'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'. moHaqvaD chuHwI'
> DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp. ghu'vam vIqelmeH DIvI' Hol qechmey /subject/
> /object/ je, jImISqu'choH. 'ach vuDlIj QIjmeH /subject/ /object/ je
> wuv SuStel. rarchu'be' tlhIngan Hol, qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.
>
> ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj. 'oSlaHbe' wot'e'
> tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je, 'eb lonlu'pu' 'ej pagh chavlu'.
Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.
> mu' chenmoHmeH mIw DuH lonlu'. vaj vay' chuHlu'bogh 'oSlaHbe'
> ?chuHlu'wI' 'ej cha' mu' DIlo'nIS. <vay' chuHlu'bogh> vIlo'laH, 'a
> jIHvaD <?chuHlu'wI'> 'IH law' <vay' chuHlu'bogh> 'IH puS, ngajmo'
> ?chuHlu'wI' 'ej nItebHa' chang'eng luchenmoHmo' chuHwI' ?chuHlu'wI'
> je. me'ghan poQ Hoch 'er'In.
> chaq Sov puS vIghaj 'ej chaq vulqangan meqmey rurbe' Hoch meqmeywIj.
> Sov law' ghajbej SuStel, 'a vulqangan meqmey lo'law' je. potlh Sov, 'a
> tlhIngan HolvaD muj vulqangan meqmey 'e' vIQub je.
Doghqu' mu'tlheghmey vorgh. ngeb vulqangan tlhIngan je. Human maH.
>
> jagh QaHbe'nISlu' 'a vuDDaj meq qaq buSHa'law' SuStel.
nuqjatlh? /SuStel seems to ignore his preferable opinion./
> wot tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je ngaSbogh mu'tlhegh naDpu''a' marq
> 'oqranD? ghobe' vIQub.
Interesting sentence. Can one use an exclamation as the object of a verb?
> chaq not wuqnIS, pagh chaq tu'qomvam par, pagh chaq latlh meg ghaj.
You've misspelled *meq* like a common convention bag-seller!
> wa' 'eb jonmeH cha' 'eb lon neHbe' 'e' vItu'. Sojvam wuqchugh, latlh
> 'eb lon chaq 'e' jal.
>
> vuDwIjvaD meq yap vI'ang 'e' vItul. 'a ram vuDwIj, Qochchugh marq
> 'oqranD. 'e' vIlajchu'.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/2017 12:53 AM, Ed Bailey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>QeS, bIQIj 'e' DaQoy DaneHmo', choquvmoH.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><i>Because you want to hear that you explain...</i> I think you
meant <b>jIQIj.</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> vaj vuDwIj vIQIjmeH vIvum 'e' Daqotlhbej.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>wa'DIch jIQIjbe', pIj Sojvam ngachlu'pu'mo' 'ej Sojvam
wuqlaHmo' marq 'oqranD neH. tagha' wuq marq 'oqranD 'e'
vIjInqu', jIjatlhpu'. wuqchugh, ramchoH Hoch latlh vuD.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
jIQIjchoHpa', paghDIch mIw vIja'. taghwI' jIHtaHvIS,
jIngongmeH jIngong vIneH. Dayaj'a'? wotDaq DIpDaq je mojaqmey
vImutlh ngugh vIneH.<br>
naQjej rurmo' wot, ghantoH <chuH> vIlo'. vay''e'
chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej ?chuHlu'wI' 'e' SIbI' vItlhoj.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>vay'e' chuHlu'bogh 'oSbej *chuHlu'wI' SIbI' 'e' vItlhoj</b></p>
<p>or</p>
<p><b>SIbI' vay''e' chuHlu'bogh 'oHSbej *chuHlu'wI' 'e' vItlhoj</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> lughqu'law', 'a wa'DIch DujwIj vIvoqmo' neH. meq
vIngu'laHbe'pu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>This is probably not a good place for <b>-pu'.</b> You're
describing your state of mind at a particular time, not a
completed event or state of mind. That state might be over now,
but in the narrative, it isn't. It's just what your state was.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> vay' vIHaDnISbogh vItu'pu'. <yIvoq 'ach yI'ol>,
qar'a'?<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>cha' mojaqvam luDuDlu' 'e' tuch'a' TKD, ngugh 'e' vISIv.
TKD 3.2.2 vIlaDpu'. wotDaq <-wI'> chellu'DI', DIp moj
wot 'ej mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha'bogh DIp'e' 'oS DIpvam chu'
'e' QIj TKD. vaj chuHbogh vay' 'oS chuHwI'.<br>
</div>
<div>Hoch QIjbe' TKD. DIp nap chenmoH wot <-wI'> je 'e'
nughojmoH TKD, 'ach <-wI'> latlh mojaq je ghajchugh wot,
qaSbogh wanI' 'angbe' TKD. 'a qay' <-lu'> neH 'e'
wIloylaH. ghu' le' 'oHba' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
nItebHa' qaSlaHbe' wot, <-lu'>, <-wI'> je lutob
mu'mey'e' lo'pu'bogh marq 'oqranD net Qub. TKD 3.2.2
qontaHvIS, ghu'vam qelbe'taH 'e' vIQub.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
cha' meqmo' ghu' le' 'oH wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'>.<br>
<br>
wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, mu'tlheghDaq wotvam tlha'laH
pagh DIp. meq wa'DIch'e' 'oH ngoDvam'e'.<br>
<br>
wot tlha'bogh DIpvaD per vIHutlh. naQjej rurmo' wot, DIpvamvaD
<chuHwI' DIp> vIper. wot nungbogh DIpvaD <DoS DIp>
vIper.<br>
<br>
wot tlhejtaHvIS <-lu'>, moHaq pIm poQ wotvam je. meq
cha'DIch 'oH ngoDvam'e'.<br>
DoS DIpvaD chuHwI' DIp DamoH rom chut.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>In English passive voice, this is true. <b>-lu'</b> is not
English passive voice. In Klingon, when <b>-lu'</b> is added, the
object remains the object.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> So'bogh DoS DIp chu' jal rom chut je,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><i>The rule of accord envisions a new, hidden target noun</i>?<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> vaj DoS DIpvam chu'vaD <ghaH> <'oH> ghap<b> </b>qellaH
vay' 'e' ghet moHaq le' DIlo'bogh.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>lughet</b><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> 'a potlhbe', mu'tlheghDaq DI'rujDaq ghap DoS DIpqoqvam
chu' tu'be'lu'mo'. wotvaD DoS DIp 'oHtaH nungbogh DIp'e'.
moHaqvaD chuHwI' DIp mojlaw' nungbogh DIp. ghu'vam vIqelmeH
DIvI' Hol qechmey /subject/ /object/ je, jImISqu'choH. 'ach
vuDlIj QIjmeH /subject/ /object/ je wuv SuStel. rarchu'be'
tlhIngan Hol, qechmeyvam je 'e' vIQub.<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>ghu'vam le'mo', SuStel vuD vIHon. latlh meq vIghaj.
'oSlaHbe' wot'e' tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je, 'eb
lonlu'pu' 'ej pagh chavlu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Hoch 'eb jon Hol 'e' SaHbe' Hol.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> mu' chenmoHmeH mIw DuH lonlu'. vaj vay' chuHlu'bogh
'oSlaHbe' ?chuHlu'wI' 'ej cha' mu' DIlo'nIS. <vay'
chuHlu'bogh> vIlo'laH, 'a jIHvaD <?chuHlu'wI'> 'IH
law' <vay' chuHlu'bogh> 'IH puS, ngajmo' ?chuHlu'wI' 'ej
nItebHa' chang'eng luchenmoHmo' chuHwI' ?chuHlu'wI' je.
me'ghan poQ Hoch 'er'In.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>chaq Sov puS vIghaj 'ej chaq vulqangan meqmey rurbe' Hoch
meqmeywIj. Sov law' ghajbej SuStel, 'a vulqangan meqmey
lo'law' je. potlh Sov, 'a tlhIngan HolvaD muj vulqangan meqmey
'e' vIQub je.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Doghqu' mu'tlheghmey vorgh. ngeb vulqangan tlhIngan je. Human
maH.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
jagh QaHbe'nISlu' 'a vuDDaj meq qaq buSHa'law' SuStel.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>nuqjatlh? <i>SuStel seems to ignore his preferable opinion.</i><br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> wot tlhejbogh <-lu'> <-wI'> je ngaSbogh
mu'tlhegh naDpu''a' marq 'oqranD? ghobe' vIQub.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Interesting sentence. Can one use an exclamation as the object of
a verb?<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> chaq not wuqnIS, pagh chaq tu'qomvam par, pagh chaq latlh
meg ghaj.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>You've misspelled <b>meq</b> like a common convention
bag-seller!<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CABSTb1dT5=cXJxT=whpz3n236WsoY1peAt=ja3iChzYLNg554g@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> wa' 'eb jonmeH cha' 'eb lon neHbe' 'e' vItu'. Sojvam
wuqchugh, latlh 'eb lon chaq 'e' jal.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>vuDwIjvaD meq yap vI'ang 'e' vItul. 'a ram vuDwIj,
Qochchugh marq 'oqranD. 'e' vIlajchu'.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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