[109040] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Rendered fat
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Sat Feb 18 14:44:29 2017
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2017 09:57:26 -0500
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR16MB1820807E851DA975FAFF140FA45C0@DM5PR16MB1820.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
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On 2/18/2017 8:37 AM, David Holt wrote:
>
> ghItlh SapIr:
>
> I suspect that part of the problem is that, for native speakers of
>
> English and most other European languages, the most natural place for the
> subject is before the verb. Thus, when we see *Soj vutlu'*, our
> instincts tell us that *Soj* is the subject, rather than an object in a
> sentence that doens't have an overt subject.
>
> I can't speak for others who have asked this question, but placement
> of the object had nothing to do with my question. I based my question
> solely from the perspective that the pronominal prefixes which
> normally indicate first- or second-person subject are used with
> {-lu'}. My hope was that following that model, we could also allow
> {-wI'} to see the assumed object as the subject. There is a form of
> "promotion" of object to subject, though admittedly incomplete,
> especially since the explicit object placement does not change. I
> admit that I couldn't recall the results of previous discussions and
> so threw it in as an additional possability to be discussed for my
> purposes. I was not proposing it as my best suggestion and knew there
> was a good chance others would shoot it down. I accept their objections.
The exact sentence TKD uses to explain the indefinite subject prefixes
is this: "Those prefixes which normally indicate first- or second-person
subject and third-person singular object (*vI-, Da-, wI-, bo-*) are used
to indicate first- or second-person object." TKD is telling us that the
object of a verb with *-lu'* remains an object with *-lu'* there. The
prefixes are being reassigned; they no longer have their old roles when
*-lu'* is used. There is no promotion of object to subject.
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/18/2017 8:37 AM, David Holt wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:DM5PR16MB1820807E851DA975FAFF140FA45C0@DM5PR16MB1820.namprd16.prod.outlook.com"
type="cite">
<p>ghItlh SapIr:</p>
<p><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I suspect that part of the
problem is that, for native speakers of </span><br>
</p>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="2"><span
style="font-size:10pt;">
<div class="PlainText">English and most other European
languages, the most natural place for the<br>
subject is before the verb. Thus, when we see *Soj
vutlu'*, our<br>
instincts tell us that *Soj* is the subject, rather than
an object in a<br>
sentence that doens't have an overt subject.</div>
<div class="PlainText"><br>
</div>
<div class="PlainText"><span style="font-family: Calibri,
Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif, "Apple Color
Emoji", "Segoe UI Emoji", NotoColorEmoji,
"Segoe UI Symbol", "Android Emoji",
EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;">I can't speak for others
who have asked this question, but placement of the
object had nothing to do with my question. I based my
question solely from the perspective that the pronominal
prefixes which normally indicate first- or second-person
subject are used with {-lu'}. My hope was that
following that model, we could also allow {-wI'} to see
the assumed object as the subject. There is a form of
"promotion" of object to subject, though admittedly
incomplete, especially since the explicit object
placement does not change. I admit that I couldn't
recall the results of previous discussions and so threw
it in as an additional possability to be discussed for
my purposes. I was not proposing it as my best
suggestion and knew there was a good chance others would
shoot it down. I accept their objections.</span></div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>The exact sentence TKD uses to explain the indefinite subject
prefixes is this: "Those prefixes which normally indicate first-
or second-person subject and third-person singular object (<b>vI-,
Da-, wI-, bo-</b>) are used to indicate first- or second-person
object." TKD is telling us that the object of a verb with <b>-lu'</b>
remains an object with <b>-lu'</b> there. The prefixes are being
reassigned; they no longer have their old roles when <b>-lu'</b>
is used. There is no promotion of object to subject.</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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