[108986] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] The Doctor Who discussion
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Mon Feb 13 22:49:26 2017
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From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:51:11 -0500
In-Reply-To: <CAEr0j+Q0NpDrrEN3WmhbjR2WkAMYE618M_2TQMgiJ-F0xx2WVA@mail.gmail.com>
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majQa'! SoQvetlh vIqawbe'pu' vaj vIQulnIS. toH, jatlhpu' /bIQtIq bom/
(heh heh).
DaH jImughqa' jIH'e'. /Qel 'Iv/ ngo' DaSov'a'?
wa' jaj jIchegh. jIcheghbej. jIcheghpa' yIpayQo'; yISaQQo';
yIbIt'eghmoHQo'. yIvoqchu' neH bIruchtaHvIS 'ej jIvoqHa'be' je
jIHvaD 'e' yItob.
On 2/13/2017 4:21 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:
> Sustel:
> /Doctor Who/ mughta’ghachlIj vIlaD ’e’ vItIv J
>
> DaH Doctor Who ’ay’ vImugh ’e’ vInIDnIS je!
>
> < Hegh Hoch ’e’ Sov Hoch. ’ach Hoch jaj qaSbe’. jajvam qaSbe’. le’ ’op
> jaj. le’qu’ ’op jaj. ’op jaj Hegh pagh nuv. rut, wa’logh qaStaHvIS poH
> nI’qu’, wa’ jaj qaStaHvIS wa’ ’uy’ jajmey, DoqtaHvIS bIQtIq bIQ ’ej
> rItlu’DI’ ghoS Qel, taH Hoch. >
>
>
> jIQaghpu'chugh jIHvaD yIja'.
>
>
> qatlho' !
>
>
> ~mughwI'
>
>
>
>
> 2017-02-12 18:20 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>>:
>
> jum. choQoylaHchugh jIratlhlaH 'e' vIQub. mIw vISovbe'. jIDogh.
> bIDogh, Qel qan. bIvemDI' SoS vav je Daghaj 'ej choqawbe'. toH,
> loQ choqaw. nachlIj Dabbogh lut jIH. lu'. tagha' lut 'oH Hoch'e'.
> lut yIQaQmoH. nIvmo', nIvbejmo': 'IDnar 'aplo' nIHta' maw'bogh loD
> qan 'ej Haw'ta'. vInIHta' 'e' qaja'? toH, vIngIpta'; reH
> vIcheghmoH 'e' vIHech. 'o 'aplo'vetlh, /Amy,/ 'aplo'vetlh Daghom
> bInajtaHvIS. not Dumej. quq ngoDmeyvam: tIn 'ej mach, chu'chu' 'ej
> qanqu'; 'ej SuDchu'ghachDaj SuD law' Hoch SuD puS. 'ej Doch
> DIta'bogh, qar'a'? Doch lujallu'bogh. Doch DIta'be'bogh.
> bInajtaHvIS ratlh Dochmeyvam. Qel /Amy Pond/ je... qaSbe'bogh
> jajmey je.
>
> SoQchoH Qarghmey. 'ach SoQlaHbe'chu' latlh Dop vIghoSpa'. DaH
> naDev jInov. ratlhbogh qaSHa'ghach vIbuSQo'. qaSqa'ghach vImuS.
> yIyInchu'. /Rory/ yImuSHa'. /Bye-bye, Pond./
>
>
> On 2/12/2017 10:27 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:
>> Thanks for your help and explanations Sustel !
>>
>> I think I get it now :)
>>
>> ~mughwI'
>>
>> PS: "TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of example ;) Whovian jIH!
>>
>>
>> 2017-02-11 18:16 GMT+01:00 SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name
>> <mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>>:
>>
>> On 2/11/2017 8:34 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:
>>> Indeed the lack of tense can be a bit confusing sometimes
>>> and it's taking me a bit of time getting used to.
>>>
>>> I'm still working to figure out also how it works with the
>>> verb suffixes.
>>>
>>> For example, in the 4 possible sentences below, do I get the
>>> exact nuances right?
>>>
>>> jIvutpu’ ’e’ vIparHa’
>>> - I like that I cooked (at some point in the past)
>>> - I like that I have cooked (just now)
>>> - I like finishing to cook (maybe implying that this is when
>>> I can finally eat ;)
>>
>> "At some point in the past" implies past tense, which we know
>> Klingon doesn't have. Instead, the *-pu'* tells us that "I
>> cook" is a completed action. In English we can't separate
>> tense and aspect, so the distinction is difficult for
>> English-speakers to grasp.
>>
>> *jIvutpu'
>> */I cooked; I have cooked; I will have cooked
>> /I perform, performed, or will perform an act of cooking, and
>> I now, did, or will complete that act.
>>
>> The single word in no way tells you whether the action is
>> past, present, or future. It means all of them and none of
>> them at the same time, the same way that /blue/ means
>> sky-blue and navy-blue and TARDIS-blue all at the same time.
>>
>> *wa'Hu' jIvutpu'
>> */yesterday I cooked; yesterday I had cooked/
>>
>> *DaH jIvutpu'
>> */right now I have cooked/
>>
>> *wa'leS jIvutpu'
>> */tomorrow I will have cooked/
>>
>> Contexts like these are required to determine /when/ the
>> cooking happened.
>>
>> If you don't use an aspect suffix, you are explicitly talking
>> about an action that is not completed (or continuous) in the
>> moment your are describing.
>>
>> *jIvut
>> */I cook; //It's true that I cook things/
>>
>> This also does not specify /when/ an action happened, which
>> requires context:
>>
>> *wa'Hu' jIvut
>> */I cooked yesterday; it's true that I engaged in cooking
>> yesterday/
>>
>> *DaH jIvut
>> */I cook now; at other times I may not have cooked, but it's
>> true that I cook now/
>>
>> *wa'leS jIvut
>> */I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow I'll do some cooking/
>>
>> You can make a similar comparison with the continuous suffixes.
>>
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<p>majQa'! SoQvetlh vIqawbe'pu' vaj vIQulnIS. toH, jatlhpu' <i>bIQtIq
bom</i> (heh heh).</p>
<p>DaH jImughqa' jIH'e'. <i>Qel 'Iv</i> ngo' DaSov'a'?<br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>wa' jaj jIchegh. jIcheghbej. jIcheghpa' yIpayQo'; yISaQQo';
yIbIt'eghmoHQo'. yIvoqchu' neH bIruchtaHvIS 'ej jIvoqHa'be' je
jIHvaD 'e' yItob.<br>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
On 2/13/2017 4:21 PM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAEr0j+Q0NpDrrEN3WmhbjR2WkAMYE618M_2TQMgiJ-F0xx2WVA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%" lang="EN-US"><font
face="times new roman, serif">Sustel: </font></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><i>Doctor Who</i>
mughta’ghachlIj vIlaD ’e’ vItIv
</span><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"
lang="EN-US">J</span><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"
lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"
lang="EN-US"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US">DaH Doctor Who ’ay’
vImugh ’e’ vInIDnIS je!</span><br>
</span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"
lang="EN-US"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:wingdings"
lang="EN-US"><span
style="font-size:11pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US">< Hegh Hoch ’e’
Sov Hoch. ’ach Hoch jaj
qaSbe’. jajvam qaSbe’. le’ ’op jaj. le’qu’ ’op jaj.
’op jaj Hegh pagh nuv. rut,
wa’logh qaStaHvIS poH nI’qu’, wa’ jaj qaStaHvIS wa’
’uy’ jajmey, DoqtaHvIS
bIQtIq bIQ ’ej rItlu’DI’ ghoS Qel, taH Hoch. ></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"> jIQaghpu'chugh
jIHvaD yIja'.<span></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US">qatlho' !</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"times
new roman",serif" lang="EN-US">~mughwI'</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
</p>
</span></span></div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-02-12 18:20 GMT+01:00 SuStel <span
dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" target="_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="gmail-m_8990357687230089476moz-cite-prefix">
<p>jum. choQoylaHchugh jIratlhlaH 'e' vIQub. mIw
vISovbe'. jIDogh. bIDogh, Qel qan. bIvemDI' SoS vav
je Daghaj 'ej choqawbe'. toH, loQ choqaw. nachlIj
Dabbogh lut jIH. lu'. tagha' lut 'oH Hoch'e'. lut
yIQaQmoH. nIvmo', nIvbejmo': 'IDnar 'aplo' nIHta'
maw'bogh loD qan 'ej Haw'ta'. vInIHta' 'e' qaja'?
toH, vIngIpta'; reH vIcheghmoH 'e' vIHech. 'o
'aplo'vetlh, <i>Amy,</i> 'aplo'vetlh Daghom
bInajtaHvIS. not Dumej. quq ngoDmeyvam: tIn 'ej
mach, chu'chu' 'ej qanqu'; 'ej SuDchu'ghachDaj SuD
law' Hoch SuD puS. 'ej Doch DIta'bogh, qar'a'? Doch
lujallu'bogh. Doch DIta'be'bogh. bInajtaHvIS ratlh
Dochmeyvam. Qel <i>Amy Pond</i> je... qaSbe'bogh
jajmey je.</p>
<p>SoQchoH Qarghmey. 'ach SoQlaHbe'chu' latlh Dop
vIghoSpa'. DaH naDev jInov. ratlhbogh qaSHa'ghach
vIbuSQo'. qaSqa'ghach vImuS. yIyInchu'. <i>Rory</i>
yImuSHa'. <i>Bye-bye, Pond.</i><br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="gmail-h5"> <br>
On 2/12/2017 10:27 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail-h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Thanks
for your help and explanations Sustel !</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I
think I get it now :)</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">~mughwI'</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">PS:
"TARDIS-blue", I love your choice of example
;) </span><font face="times new roman,
serif">Whovian jIH</font><font face="arial,
helvetica, sans-serif"> !</font></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2017-02-11 18:16
GMT+01:00 SuStel <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sustel@trimboli.name"
target="_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><span>
<div
class="gmail-m_8990357687230089476m_1027761195527772997moz-cite-prefix">On
2/11/2017 8:34 AM, Aurélie Demonchaux
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Indeed
the lack of tense can be a bit
confusing sometimes and it's taking
me a bit of time getting used to.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">I'm
still working to figure out also how
it works with the verb suffixes.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">For
example, in the 4 possible sentences
below, do I get the exact nuances
right?</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br>
</div>
<div><font face="times new roman,
serif">jIvutpu’ ’e’ vIparHa’ </font></div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">-
I like that I cooked (at some point
in the past)</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">-
I like that I have cooked (just now)</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">-
I like finishing to cook (maybe
implying that this is when I can
finally eat ;)</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>
<p>"At some point in the past" implies
past tense, which we know Klingon
doesn't have. Instead, the <b>-pu'</b>
tells us that "I cook" is a completed
action. In English we can't separate
tense and aspect, so the distinction is
difficult for English-speakers to grasp.</p>
<p><b>jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>I cooked; I have cooked; I will
have cooked<br>
</i>I perform, performed, or will
perform an act of cooking, and I now,
did, or will complete that act.</p>
<p>The single word in no way tells you
whether the action is past, present, or
future. It means all of them and none of
them at the same time, the same way that
<i>blue</i> means sky-blue and navy-blue
and TARDIS-blue all at the same time.<br>
</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>yesterday I cooked; yesterday I
had cooked</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>right now I have cooked</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvutpu'<br>
</b><i>tomorrow I will have cooked</i></p>
<p>Contexts like these are required to
determine <i>when</i> the cooking
happened.</p>
<p>If you don't use an aspect suffix, you
are explicitly talking about an action
that is not completed (or continuous) in
the moment your are describing.</p>
<p><b>jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook; </i><i>It's true that I
cook things</i></p>
<p>This also does not specify <i>when</i>
an action happened, which requires
context:</p>
<p><b>wa'Hu' jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cooked yesterday; it's true
that I engaged in cooking yesterday</i></p>
<p><b>DaH jIvut<br>
</b><i>I cook now; at other times I may
not have cooked, but it's true that I
cook now</i></p>
<p><b>wa'leS jIvut<br>
</b><i>I will cook tomorrow; tomorrow
I'll do some cooking</i></p>
<p>You can make a similar comparison with
the continuous suffixes.<span
class="gmail-m_8990357687230089476HOEnZb"></span>
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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