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Re: [tlhIngan Hol] KLBC - How to say "I like to do/doing something"

daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Terrence Donnelly)
Thu Feb 9 11:28:43 2017

X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2017 16:28:38 +0000 (UTC)
From: Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E05C416F93@xm-mbx-06-prod>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org,
	Terrence Donnelly <terrence.donnelly@sbcglobal.net>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org

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Maybe it's because I first encountered the word in the context of one's rea=
ction to people, but I always associate {par} with the idea of disliking a =
person, and not an action. If I wanted to say, "I like to cook" I would be =
more likely to use {tIv} 'to enjoy': {jIvut 'e' vItIv}.
I've occasionally used {-qang}, in analogy to the German use of "gern": {'I=
wchab vISopqang} "I like to eat blood pie".
ter'eS

      From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
 To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>=20
 Sent: Thursday, February 9, 2017 10:05 AM
 Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] KLBC - How to say "I like to do/doing somethin=
g"
  =20
#yiv4577579291 #yiv4577579291 -- _filtered #yiv4577579291 {font-family:Cour=
ier;panose-1:2 7 4 9 2 2 5 2 4 4;} _filtered #yiv4577579291 {panose-1:2 2 6=
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iv4577579291 p.yiv4577579291MsoNormal, #yiv4577579291 li.yiv4577579291MsoNo=
rmal, #yiv4577579291 div.yiv4577579291MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.=
0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}#yiv4577579291 a:link, #yiv4577579291 span.yiv4577=
579291MsoHyperlink {color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4577579291=
 a:visited, #yiv4577579291 span.yiv4577579291MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:#9=
54F72;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv4577579291 span.yiv4577579291EmailStyl=
e17 {color:#44546A;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:non=
e none;}#yiv4577579291 .yiv4577579291MsoChpDefault {} _filtered #yiv4577579=
291 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv4577579291 div.yiv4577579291WordSe=
ction1 {}#yiv4577579291 (KGT 71):=C2=A0 Among Klingons, pleasure is deemed =
quite unessential for one's well-being. More frequently, the appreciation o=
f music is expressed in terms of something that music does to the listener =
rather than in terms of the listener's reaction. Thus, music is said to emb=
olden (jaqmoH), excite (SeymoH), encourage (tungHa'), or to stimulate or in=
spire (pIlmoH)."=20
Also consider:

bel=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be pleased (v) belHa'=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 be displeased (v)
belHa'moH=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 displease (v)  =C2=A0 =C2=A0 chobelHa'mo=
H, DI'qar.
=C2=A0 You disappoint (lit. =E2=80=9Cdisplease=E2=80=9D) me, D'Kar. =C2=A0(=
STConst p.259)  =C2=A0 belmoH [please (someone)] (v)

 =C2=A0qabelmoH'a'=20
Do I please you? (i.e. Do you like me?) PK=20
lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul=20
we hope that you will be pleased with the results.
(Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at qepHom wa'maHDIch)=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tlhIHvaD paq chu' wImuch 'e' bochaw'mo' chequvmoH 'ej ch=
ebelmoH.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0lut'a'raj Dun laDlaHmeH tera'ngan, tera'Daq tlhInga=
n lut'a' paq wa'Dich
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0wIchenmoHta', lut'a' 'oH paq'batlh'e'.=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0It is a great honor and pleasure that you have allo=
wed us to present you with
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0the first Terran edition of your glorious epic, the paq'=
batlh.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0(also from Vincent's speech)

 Using the noun {bel} =E2=80=9Cpleasure, joy=E2=80=9D may also be productiv=
e.=C2=A0 E.g.

=C2=A0 'utbe' bel=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Pleasure is nonessential. TKW=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0 lenglIj lutebjaj lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov rap, ngoQ
=C2=A0 =C2=A0rap je Danobpu'bogh.=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0May your journey be filled with the same joy, wisdom,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and purpose you have given mine. (Frasier)  =C2=A0 As for omit=
ting {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} -- don=E2=80=99t.=C2=A0 {neH} is the only except=
ion in SAOs:  =C2=A0 (TKD 66f.):=C2=A0 When the verb of the second sentence=
 is {neH} =E2=80=9Cwant=E2=80=9D, neither {'e'} nor {net} is used, but the =
construction is otherwise identical to that just described.  =C2=A0 As far =
as we know this usage is unique to {neH}.=C2=A0 While "I like that I cook" =
or "The Vulcan doesn't like that he fights" may sound awkward in English, t=
hey don=E2=80=99t in Klingon.

--Voragh=20

 On Behalf OfAur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 6:32 AM

I've been wondering, what's the correct way to express liking / disliking a=
n activity? For example, saying:=C2=A0"I like to cook" or "The Vulcan doesn=
't like to fight"  =C2=A0 We have some examples of <par> and <parHa'> being=
 used with nouns or pronouns but I can't find any canon source where they a=
pply to verbs.  =C2=A0 Do you use {'e'} or nothing in those cases?=C2=A0As =
in: =C2=A0=C2=A0<jIvut vIparHa'> vs <jIvut =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIparHa'> =
=C2=A0=C2=A0<Suv par vulqangan> vs <Suv =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 par vulqangan> =
 =C2=A0 My "feeling" would be to use no =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 , similar to th=
e construction with <want> (neH), because 'e' is the equivalent of "that", =
so using it would mean "I like that I cook" / "The Vulcan doesn't like that=
 he fights", implying that the cooking/fighting is actually happening now, =
instead of stating "I like cooking in general"/"the Vulcan doesn't like fig=
hting in general" (but I'm not necessarily cooking right now and the Vulcan=
 is not fighting right now either).  =C2=A0 What do you think?  =C2=A0=20
_______________________________________________
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, =
sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12004=
">Maybe it's because I first encountered the word in the context of one's r=
eaction to people, but I always associate {par} with the idea of disliking =
a person, and not an action. If I wanted to say, "I like to cook" I would b=
e more likely to use {tIv} 'to enjoy': {jIvut 'e' vItIv}.</div><div id=3D"y=
ui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12005"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12006">I've occasionally used {-qang}, in analo=
gy to the German use of "gern": {'Iwchab vISopqang} "I like to eat blood pi=
e".<br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12007"><span></span=
></div><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_1=
2008">ter'eS<br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19=
_1_1486657297319_12015" style=3D"display: block;">  <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-se=
rif; font-size: 13px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12014"> <div s=
tyle=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucid=
a Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14866572973=
19_12013"> <div dir=3D"ltr" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12012"> <=
font id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12027" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"=
> <hr size=3D"1"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Ste=
ven Boozer &lt;sboozer@uchicago.edu&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">To:</span></b> "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" &lt;tlhingan-hol@kli.org&gt; <=
br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, Februa=
ry 9, 2017 10:05 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</spa=
n></b> Re: [tlhIngan Hol] KLBC - How to say "I like to do/doing something"<=
br> </font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1=
486657297319_12028"><br><div id=3D"yiv4577579291"><style>#yiv4577579291 #yi=
v4577579291 --
=20
 _filtered #yiv4577579291 {font-family:Courier;panose-1:2 7 4 9 2 2 5 2 4 4=
;}
 _filtered #yiv4577579291 {panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;}
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4;}
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#yiv4577579291 =20
#yiv4577579291 p.yiv4577579291MsoNormal, #yiv4577579291 li.yiv4577579291Mso=
Normal, #yiv4577579291 div.yiv4577579291MsoNormal
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#yiv4577579291 a:link, #yiv4577579291 span.yiv4577579291MsoHyperlink
=09{color:#0563C1;text-decoration:underline;}
#yiv4577579291 a:visited, #yiv4577579291 span.yiv4577579291MsoHyperlinkFoll=
owed
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#yiv4577579291 .yiv4577579291MsoChpDefault
=09{}
 _filtered #yiv4577579291 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
#yiv4577579291 div.yiv4577579291WordSection1
=09{}
#yiv4577579291 </style><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12032">
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291WordSection1" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297=
319_12031">
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319=
_12030"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">(KGT 71):&nbsp; </span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Courier;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12029">=
Among Klingons, pleasure is deemed quite unessential for one's well-being. =
More frequently, the appreciation of music is expressed in terms of somethi=
ng
 that music does to the listener rather than in terms of the listener's rea=
ction. Thus, music is said to embolden (<b>jaqmoH</b>), excite (<b>SeymoH</=
b>), encourage (<b>tungHa'</b>), or to stimulate or inspire (<b>pIlmoH</b>)=
.</span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">"
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319=
_12033"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"><br clear=3D"none">
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657=
297319_12034">Also consider:<b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12035"=
><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
bel</b>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be pleased (v)</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319=
_12039"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">belHa'&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;" id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12038">be displeased (v)<br clear=3D"no=
ne">
<b id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12037"><span style=3D"color:#C0000=
0;" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1486657297319_12036">belHa'moH</span>&nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </b>displease (v)</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"><=
/span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"> &n=
bsp;</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><b>&nbsp; chobelHa'moH, DI'qar.</b><i=
><br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; </i>You disappoint (lit. =E2=80=9Cdisplease=E2=80=9D) me, D'Kar. &nb=
sp;(<i>STConst</i> p.259)</div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"> &nbsp;</div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier=
;">belmoH</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;"> [<i>please (someo=
ne)]</i> (v)<i><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</i></span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.2in;line-height=
:12.0pt;">
<span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">&nbsp;<b>qabelmoH'a'</b> <br clear=3D"=
none">
Do I please you? (i.e. <i>Do you like me?</i>) PK</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.2in;line-height=
:12.0pt;">
<span style=3D"font-family:Courier;"><br clear=3D"none">
<b><span style=3D"color:#C00000;">lIbelmoH paqvam 'e' vItul</span> <br clea=
r=3D"none">
</b>we hope that you will be pleased with the results.<br clear=3D"none">
(Vincent Van Gerven Oei's speech at <b>qepHom wa'maHDIch</b>)</span><b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Courier;"></span></b></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><i><span style=3D"font-family:Courier=
;"><br clear=3D"none">
</span></i><b><span style=3D"color:#C00000;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; tlhIHvaD pa=
q chu' wImuch 'e' bochaw'mo' chequvmoH 'ej chebelmoH.
<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;lut'a'raj Dun laDlaHmeH tera'ngan, tera'Daq tlhInga=
n lut'a' paq wa'Dich<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;wIchenmoHta', lut'a' 'oH paq'batlh'e'.</span></b> <br cl=
ear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is a great honor and pleasure that you have allo=
wed us to present you with<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;the first Terran edition of your glorious epic, the <i>p=
aq'batlh</i>.<br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;(also from Vincent's speech)<span style=3D"font-family:C=
ourier;"><br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<i></i></span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">=
Using the noun {<b>bel}</b> =E2=80=9Cpleasure, joy=E2=80=9D may also be pro=
ductive.&nbsp; E.g.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
<b>&nbsp; 'utbe' bel</b> <br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pleasure is nonessential. TKW</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">=
<br clear=3D"none">
<b>&nbsp;&nbsp; lenglIj lutebjaj lengwIjvaD bel rap, Sov rap, ngoQ<br clear=
=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;rap je Danobpu'bogh.</b> <br clear=3D"none">
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;May your journey be filled with the same joy, wisdom,<br =
clear=3D"none">
&nbsp; &nbsp;and purpose you have given mine. (Frasier)</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">=
 &nbsp;</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;">As =
for omitting {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} -- don=E2=80=99t.&nbsp; {neH} is the onl=
y exception in SAOs:</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"> &n=
bsp;</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier;">=
(TKD 66f.):&nbsp; When the verb of the second sentence is {<b>neH}</b> =E2=
=80=9C<i>want=E2=80=9D</i>, neither {<b>'e'}</b> nor {<b>net}</b> is used, =
but the construction is otherwise identical to that just described.</span><=
span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"></span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"> &n=
bsp;</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">As far as we know th=
is usage is unique to {neH}.&nbsp; While "I like that I cook" or "The Vulca=
n doesn't like that he fights" may sound awkward in English, they don=E2=80=
=99t in Klingon.<br clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
--Voragh</span></div>=20
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;"><br=
 clear=3D"none">
<br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>=20
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in;">
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;">=
On Behalf Of
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;">Aur=C3=A9lie Demonchaux<br cle=
ar=3D"none">
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 09, 2017 6:32 AM</span></div><div class=3D"=
yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yqtfd02445"><br clear=3D"non=
e">
<br clear=3D"none">
</div><div class=3D"yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yqtfd941=
01">
</div></div><div class=3D"yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yq=
tfd11628">
</div></div><div class=3D"yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yq=
tfd42958">
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">I've been wondering,=
 what's the correct way to express liking / disliking an activity?</span></=
div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">For example, saying:=
<span style=3D"color:#44546A;">&nbsp;
</span>"I like to cook"<b><i><span style=3D"color:#44546A;"> </span></i></b=
>or "The Vulcan doesn't like to fight"<span style=3D"color:#44546A;"></span=
></span></div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></div>=
=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">We have some example=
s of &lt;par&gt; and &lt;parHa'&gt; being used with nouns or pronouns but I=
 can't find any canon source where they apply to verbs.</span></div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></div>=
=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">Do you use {'e'} or =
nothing in those cases?<b><i><span style=3D"color:#44546A;">&nbsp;
</span></i></b>As in:</span></div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546A;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;jIvut vIparHa'&gt; vs &lt;jIvut =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 vIparH=
a'&gt;</div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#44546A;">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;</span>&lt;Suv par vulqangan&gt; vs &lt;Suv =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 par v=
ulqangan&gt;</div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></div>=
=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">My "feeling" would b=
e to use no =E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 , similar to the construction with &lt;want=
&gt; (neH), because 'e' is the equivalent of "that", so using it would mean=
 "I like that I cook" / "The Vulcan doesn't
 like that he fights", implying that the cooking/fighting is actually happe=
ning now, instead of stating "I like cooking in general"/"the Vulcan doesn'=
t like fighting in general" (but I'm not necessarily cooking right now and =
the Vulcan is not fighting right
 now either).</span></div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></div>=
=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D"">What do you think?</=
span></div>=20
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"yiv4577579291MsoNormal"><span style=3D""> &nbsp;</span></div>=
=20
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div class=3D"yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yq=
tfd04513">
</div></div><div class=3D"yiv4577579291yqt5002763755" id=3D"yiv4577579291yq=
tfd01292">
</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"yqt5002763755" id=3D"yqtfd93923">______=
_________________________________________<br clear=3D"none">tlhIngan-Hol ma=
iling list<br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-H=
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ists.kli.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a shape=3D"rect" href=3D"http://lists.k=
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