[108435] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] ghorgh and nuqDaq next to nouns
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Fri Dec 16 09:36:18 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <dcc9119b-729d-4ac3-b0d8-d7650c20290b@trimboli.name>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2016 16:36:14 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
--===============6183699853553885015==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dae720050b00543c77e81
--001a114dae720050b00543c77e81
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
SuStel:
> My answer is that in none of these sentences
> do we see question words as part of a noun-
> noun construction. In the first two we see an
> independent time expression* (DaSjaj)* and the
> question word *ghorgh* each standing alone.
> In the second two we see a locative
> noun *(tera'Daq)* and the question
> word *nuqDaq* each standing alone. There are
> no noun-noun constructions here.
So, would you accept the {ghorgh} and {nuqDaq} examples which I wrote, as
being correct ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 16 Dec 2016 4:28 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 12/16/2016 9:00 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> but if I write something which doesn't violate a rule, why dismiss it if
> okrand never used it ? who can argue that okrand has used every possible
> combination in klingon, so that if what I write doesn't fall into these
> combinations, then it is wrong ?
>
>
> There's not violating a rule, and then there's making up a new rule.
> You're trying to construct a sentence whose grammar doesn't follow from
> what we've been given, but which does mimic English grammar. This is a
> strong sign that you're trying to follow the rules of English to construct
> Klingon sentences.
>
> If you try to make a sentence using a rule you made up, even one which
> doesn't seem to violate any of Okrand's rules, we're going to demand to see
> some justification. This is why I tell you, when you ask why can't we say **pawpu'
> nuq Duj** what ship has arrived?*, that Okrand hasn't created a rule that
> says *nuq* acts like *which?,* and he's never constructed a sentence that
> acted that way. Those are the two ways we learn the rules of Klingon:
> Okrand says "this is a rule," or we deduce the rules from Okrand's examples.
>
> *nuq* goes in the place the answer would occupy. But if it's part of a
> noun-noun construction it the answer doesn't replace the entire noun-noun.
> If the answer were *pawpu' 'entepray',* what I've done is replace **nuq
> Duj**,* not just *nuq,* with the answer. And there's no rule that says we
> can do that or example of Okrand doing that.
>
> Furthermore, Okrand *has* given us question words next to nouns, but they
> mean something very different. *nuq* and *'Iv* work like pronouns, and
> you can say things like *nuq Duj**vetlh** what is that ship?* and *yaSvetlh
> 'Iv** who is that officer?*
>
> You originally asked,
>
> we said that we can't have {'Iv} and {nuq} as part of noun-noun
> constructions. but can we have the {ghorgh} and {nuqDaq} existing next
> to nouns ?
>
> for example can we say:
>
> {ghorgh DaSjaj mamej}
> when do we depart on monday ?
>
> {DaSjaj ghorgh mamej}
> on monday when do we depart
>
> {nuqDaq tera'Daq mIl'oDmey tu'lu'}
> where on earth someone finds bears ?
>
> {tera'Daq nuqDaq mIl'oDmey tu'lu'}
> on earth where someone finds bears ?
>
> My answer is that in none of these sentences do we see question words as
> part of a noun-noun construction. In the first two we see an independent
> time expression* (DaSjaj)* and the question word *ghorgh* each standing
> alone. In the second two we see a locative noun *(tera'Daq)* and the
> question word *nuqDaq* each standing alone. There are no noun-noun
> constructions here.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
--001a114dae720050b00543c77e81
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> My answer is that in none of these sentences<br>
> do we see question words as part of a noun-<br>
> noun construction. In the first two we see an<br>
> independent time expression<b>=C2=A0(DaSjaj)</b>=C2=A0and the<br>
> question word=C2=A0<b>ghorgh</b>=C2=A0each standing alone.<br>
> In the second two we see a locative<br>
> noun=C2=A0<b>(tera'Daq)</b>=C2=A0and the question<br>
> word=C2=A0<b>nuqDaq</b>=C2=A0each standing alone. There are<br>
> no noun-noun constructions here.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">So, would you accept the {ghorgh} and {nuqDaq} examples whic=
h I wrote, as being correct ?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 16 Dec 2016 4:=
28 pm, "SuStel" <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name">suste=
l@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<div class=3D"m_-452005272541219020moz-cite-prefix">On 12/16/2016 9:00 =
AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">but if I write something which doesn't vi=
olate a rule,
why dismiss it if okrand never used it ? who can argue that okrand
has used every possible combination in klingon, so that if what I
write doesn't fall into these combinations, then it is wrong ?
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>There's not violating a rule, and then there's making up a n=
ew
rule. You're trying to construct a sentence whose grammar doesn&#=
39;t
follow from what we've been given, but which does mimic English
grammar. This is a strong sign that you're trying to follow the
rules of English to construct Klingon sentences.</p>
<p>If you try to make a sentence using a rule you made up, even one
which doesn't seem to violate any of Okrand's rules, we'r=
e going
to demand to see some justification. This is why I tell you, when
you ask why can't we say <b>*pawpu' nuq Duj</b><i> what ship =
has
arrived?</i>, that Okrand hasn't created a rule that says <b>nu=
q</b>
acts like <i>which?,</i> and he's never constructed a sentence
that acted that way. Those are the two ways we learn the rules of
Klingon: Okrand says "this is a rule," or we deduce the rul=
es from
Okrand's examples.</p>
<p><b>nuq</b> goes in the place the answer would occupy. But if it'=
s
part of a noun-noun construction it the answer doesn't replace th=
e
entire noun-noun. If the answer were <b>pawpu' 'entepray'=
,</b>
what I've done is replace <b>*nuq Duj</b><b>,</b> not just <b>nuq=
,</b>
with the answer. And there's no rule that says we can do that or
example of Okrand doing that.</p>
<p>Furthermore, Okrand <i>has</i> given us question words next to
nouns, but they mean something very different. <b>nuq</b> and <b>'=
;Iv</b>
work like pronouns, and you can say things like <b>nuq Duj</b><b>vetl=
h</b><i>
what is that ship?</i> and <b>yaSvetlh 'Iv</b><i> who is that
officer?</i><br>
</p>
<p>You originally asked,</p>
<blockquote>
<pre>we said that we can't have {'Iv} and {nuq} as part of no=
un-noun
constructions. but can we have the {ghorgh} and {nuqDaq} existing next
to nouns ?
for example can we say:
{ghorgh DaSjaj mamej}
when do we depart on monday ?
{DaSjaj ghorgh mamej}
on monday when do we depart
{nuqDaq tera'Daq mIl'oDmey tu'lu'}
where on earth someone finds bears ?
{tera'Daq nuqDaq mIl'oDmey tu'lu'}
on earth where someone finds bears ?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p>My answer is that in none of these sentences do we see question
words as part of a noun-noun construction. In the first two we see
an independent time expression<b> (DaSjaj)</b> and the question
word <b>ghorgh</b> each standing alone. In the second two we see
a locative noun <b>(tera'Daq)</b> and the question word <b>nuqDaq=
</b>
each standing alone. There are no noun-noun constructions here.<br>
</p>
<pre>
</pre>
<pre class=3D"m_-452005272541219020moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_-452005272541219020moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.<wbr>cgi/tlhinga=
n-hol-kli.org</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
--001a114dae720050b00543c77e81--
--===============6183699853553885015==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
--===============6183699853553885015==--
