[108412] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Who shall call them from the twilight ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Dec 14 16:43:33 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
In-Reply-To: <1be20843-771c-e189-bf8c-7c4cad8e9bc2@trimboli.name>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 16:37:34 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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SuStel:
> 'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh
> house member of the receiver of the oath
> which they swore.
thank you for explaining this ! I just learned something new, something I
hadn't realized so far !
we have the {'Ip lulay'bogh} "the oath which they swore". and then we have
the {HevwI' tuqnIgh}. So, we put them together, forming a noun-noun
construction thus getting "house member of the receiver of the oath which
they swore". this is beautiful !
I hadn't realized that we could take a noun, entangle it with {-bogh} and
use it in a noun-noun construction.
jIQuch !
however, a new question just appeared in my mind, so let me ask you..
instead of the {'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, could we write {'Ip'e'
lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, or would this be considered a violation of the
rule that "in noun-noun constructions only the last noun can take type-5
suffixes" ?
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 14 Dec 2016 4:23 pm, "SuStel" <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
> On 12/14/2016 8:35 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> SuStel:
> > chay' Mordor HIv bot puSqu'wI'?=C2=BB
>
> the {puSqu'wI'} means "very few people" ?
>
>
> Yes. It could mean very few of anything, but the intended implication,
> which you took, is people.
>
>
> and something must be happening with {HIv} and {bot}. "how very few peopl=
e
> will prevent attack mordor" ?
>
>
> Hmm. It seems that *HIv* as a noun doesn't appear in the new words list.
> It should: in *Star Trek V,* Captain Klaa says *HIv He yIchoHmoH*, which
> is subtitled *Alter the attack course!*
>
>
> SuStel:
> > 'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh.
>
> I can't translate this; all I get is "the member(s) of the house of the
> receiver(s) who swore the oath". Or "the oath which was sworn by the
> member(s) of the house of the receiver(s).
>
>
> An attempt to avoid this "ship in which I fled" problem, in this case "th=
e
> heir of him to whom the oath they swore." The best I could come up with w=
as
> "house member of the receiver of the oath which they swore." I should hav=
e
> put a *-pu'* on *lay'.* If you can think of a more obvious translation,
> let me know. I claim the excuse of translating while at work.
>
>
> SuStel:
> > Sauron luquvmoHmo' qaStaHvIS DISmey
> > lunaDHa'lu'bogh
>
> this confuses me too.. "because they honored Sauron while the years which
> someone discommended them were happening" ?
>
>
> I didn't want to translate *Dark Years* literally, as there was plenty of
> sunlight at the time. The Dark Years
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Years> were the period of the Second
> Age wherein lesser men worshiped Sauron and he held dominion over most of
> Middle-earth, before the coming of the N=C3=BAmen=C3=B3reans in Exile. Th=
ese were
> also called the Accursed Years, and I looked in a thesaurus for inspirati=
on
> on how to translate this. I noticed *condemned* and *bedeviled,* and
> somehow that led me to *naDHa'.* I can't defend this. I probably could
> have gone with something bland, like *DIS lumuSlu'bogh* or, even worse, *=
DIS
> mIgh.*
>
> Anyway, by that time I had to go to the bathroom and it was nearly time t=
o
> go home. I was rushing.
>
> --
> SuStelhttp://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> 'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh<br>
> house member of the receiver of the oath<br>
> which they swore.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">thank you for explaining this ! I just learned something new=
, something I hadn't realized so far !</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">we have the {'Ip lulay'bogh} "the oath which th=
ey swore". and then we have the {HevwI' tuqnIgh}. So, we put them =
together, forming a noun-noun construction thus getting "house member =
of the receiver of the oath which they swore". this is beautiful !</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I hadn't realized that we could take a noun, entangle it=
with {-bogh} and use it in a noun-noun construction.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">jIQuch !</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">however, a new question just appeared in my mind, so let me =
ask you..</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">instead of the {'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, =
could we write {'Ip'e' lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh}, or w=
ould this be considered a violation of the rule that "in noun-noun con=
structions only the last noun can take type-5 suffixes" ?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 Dec 2016 4:=
23 pm, "SuStel" <<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" targe=
t=3D"_blank">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<div class=3D"m_7236017509140915185moz-cite-prefix">On 12/14/2016 8:35 =
AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> chay'=C2=A0Mordor=C2=A0HIv bot puSqu'wI'?=C2=BB</p=
>
<p dir=3D"ltr">the {puSqu'wI'} means "very few people&qu=
ot; ?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes. It could mean very few of anything, but the intended
implication, which you took, is people.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr"> and something must be happening with {HIv} and
{bot}. "how very few people will prevent attack mordor" ?=
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Hmm. It seems that <b>HIv</b> as a noun doesn't appear in the
new words list. It should: in <i>Star Trek V,</i> Captain Klaa
says <b>HIv He yIchoHmoH</b>, which is subtitled <i>Alter the
attack course!</i><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> 'Ip lulay'bogh HevwI' tuqnIgh.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I can't translate this; all I get is "the mem=
ber(s)
of the house of the receiver(s) who swore the oath". Or "=
the
oath which was sworn by the member(s) of the house of the
receiver(s).</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>An attempt to avoid this "ship in which I fled" problem, i=
n this
case "the heir of him to whom the oath they swore." The bes=
t I
could come up with was "house member of the receiver of the oath
which they swore." I should have put a <b>-pu'</b> on <b>lay=
'.</b>
If you can think of a more obvious translation, let me know. I
claim the excuse of translating while at work.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> Sauron=C2=A0luquvmoHmo' qaStaHvIS DISmey<br>
> lunaDHa'lu'bogh</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">this confuses me too.. "because they honored Saur=
on
while the years which someone discommended them were happening"=
;
?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>I didn't want to translate <i>Dark Years</i> literally, as there
was plenty of sunlight at the time. The <a href=3D"https://en.wikiped=
ia.org/wiki/Dark_Years" target=3D"_blank">Dark Years</a>
were the period of the Second Age wherein lesser men worshiped
Sauron and he held dominion over most of Middle-earth, before the
coming of the N=C3=BAmen=C3=B3reans in Exile. These were also called =
the
Accursed Years, and I looked in a thesaurus for inspiration on how
to translate this. I noticed <i>condemned</i> and <i>bedeviled,</i>
and somehow that led me to <b>naDHa'.</b> I can't defend this=
. I
probably could have gone with something bland, like <b>DIS
lumuSlu'bogh</b> or, even worse, <b>DIS mIgh.</b></p>
<p>Anyway, by that time I had to go to the bathroom and it was
nearly time to go home. I was rushing.<br>
</p>
<pre class=3D"m_7236017509140915185moz-signature" cols=3D"72">--=20
SuStel
<a class=3D"m_7236017509140915185moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://trim=
boli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
</div>
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