[108410] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Who shall call them from the twilight ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (SuStel)
Wed Dec 14 15:23:31 2016
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To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 11:47:29 -0500
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKn2OAQypEY0WTWwrZEUbeoqzrXsU1M5RjCeK6_sRb9iA@mail.gmail.com>
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On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> Andre Müller:
> > I think SuStel's point is: /On screen, no one can/
> /> hear your spaces./
>
> hahaha ! ok, now I understand !
>
Yes. It /could/ be a new word *HIvHe'* that cannot be decomposed, or it
could be *HIv,* an unattested noun form of the verb, plus *He,* space or
no space.
The movie also gives us *chorghSaD qelI'qam HIvchuq 'e'
vInoH*/Estimating attack range in 8,000 kellicams./ This sentence is
maddeningly unclear: is *chorghSaD qelI'qam* something akin to a time
stamp? Is *HIvchuq* /attack each other/ or /attack range/ (with the same
unattested noun form of *HIv*)? Is *HIvchuq* a new, irreducible noun?
Why does this sentence no verb? (It's probably clipped, which means
we're trying to figure out grammar from an incomplete sentence.)
*HIv* is a very frustrating word.
> and now, lets talk about something which was discussed earlier in this
> thread..
>
> SuStel:
> > Unknown whether you can use *nuq* or *'Iv* as
> > part of a noun-noun construction.
>
> I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.
>
> lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq}
> and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?
>
*paw,* not *paw'* (unless the arrival was very rough!).
*nuq* goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the same
sentence with a substitution for *nuq,* then the question is not formed
correctly.
If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the /Enterprise/
arrived, then the answer is *pawta' 'entepray'.* But this isn't in the
same form that you asked it, because it doesn't include the word *Duj.*
So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful.
There /are/ some answers that would fit, like, say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.*
But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask questions
this way.
In any case, we've never seen Okrand use *nuq* or *'Iv* in a noun-noun
construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unknown.
The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify:
*paw'ta'bogh Duj yIngu'*/identify the ship that has arrived!/ If you're
not asking for a name, you might get more specific, like *pawta'bogh Duj
Sar yIngu'* /identify the type of ship that has arrived!/
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cKn2OAQypEY0WTWwrZEUbeoqzrXsU1M5RjCeK6_sRb9iA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">Andre Müller:<br>
> I think SuStel's point is: <i>On screen, no one can</i><br>
<i>> hear your spaces.</i></p>
<p dir="ltr">hahaha ! ok, now I understand !</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p>Yes. It <i>could</i> be a new word <b>HIvHe'</b> that cannot be
decomposed, or it could be <b>HIv,</b> an unattested noun form of
the verb, plus <b>He,</b> space or no space.</p>
<p>The movie also gives us <b>chorghSaD qelI'qam HIvchuq 'e' vInoH</b><i>
Estimating attack range in 8,000 kellicams.</i> This sentence is
maddeningly unclear: is <b>chorghSaD qelI'qam</b> something akin
to a time stamp? Is <b>HIvchuq</b> <i>attack each other</i> or <i>attack
range</i> (with the same unattested noun form of <b>HIv</b>)?
Is <b>HIvchuq</b> a new, irreducible noun? Why does this sentence
no verb? (It's probably clipped, which means we're trying to
figure out grammar from an incomplete sentence.)</p>
<p><b>HIv</b> is a very frustrating word.<br>
</p>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAP7F2cKn2OAQypEY0WTWwrZEUbeoqzrXsU1M5RjCeK6_sRb9iA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<p dir="ltr">and now, lets talk about something which was
discussed earlier in this thread..</p>
<p dir="ltr">SuStel:<br>
> Unknown whether you can use <b>nuq</b> or <b>'Iv</b> as<br>
> part of a noun-noun construction.</p>
<p dir="ltr">I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand
this correctly.</p>
<p dir="ltr">lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both
{paw'ta' Duj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<p><b>paw,</b> not <b>paw'</b> (unless the arrival was very
rough!).</p>
<p><b>nuq</b> goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't
the same sentence with a substitution for <b>nuq,</b> then the
question is not formed correctly.</p>
<p>If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the <i>Enterprise</i>
arrived, then the answer is <b>pawta' 'entepray'.</b> But this
isn't in the same form that you asked it, because it doesn't
include the word <b>Duj.</b> So the entire method of asking the
question is doubtful.</p>
<p>There <i>are</i> some answers that would fit, like, say, <b>pawta'
DIvI' Duj.</b> But not every answer will fit, so you may not be
able to ask questions this way.</p>
<p>In any case, we've never seen Okrand use <b>nuq</b> or <b>'Iv</b>
in a noun-noun construction like this, so whether or not this is
allowed is unknown.</p>
<p>The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to
identify: <b>paw'ta'bogh Duj yIngu'</b><i> identify the ship that
has arrived!</i> If you're not asking for a name, you might get
more specific, like <b>pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu'</b> <i>identify
the type of ship that has arrived!</i><br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
SuStel
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a></pre>
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