[108404] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Who shall call them from the twilight ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (mayqel qunenoS)
Wed Dec 14 12:58:31 2016
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In-Reply-To: <ACF6622D959A8842A81E4471BA56A7E05C4012A9@xm-mbx-06-prod>
From: mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 19:18:39 +0200
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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SuStel:
> There *are* some answers that would fit, like,
> say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.*
yes, indeed; that's why I used two variants of the question: {pawta' nuq
Duj} in case the answer would be {pawta' DIvI' Duj}, and {paw'ta' Duj nuq}
in case the answer would be {pawta' Duj qIj}.
anyway, I understand now. thanks !
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 14 Dec 2016 7:13 pm, "Steven Boozer" <sboozer@uchicago.edu> wrote:
> SuStel is using the method for translating =E2=80=9Cwhich/what is X?=E2=
=80=9D that Okrand
> introduced on the old msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand BBS. FYI here
> is the relevant part of his post (unformatted):
>
>
>
> ************************************************************************
>
>
>
> From: MarcOkrand <=E2=80=A6>
>
> Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand
>
> Date: December 12, 1996
>
> Subject: What do you think?
>
>
>
> [. . . .]
>
>
>
> (2) You suggested translating "What is your favorite month?" as:
>
>
>
> *jarlIj qaq nuq*?
>
>
>
> This one's a little easier to deal with. Your sentence literally means
>
> "What is your preferable month?" The basic syntax is correct. Question
>
> words (in this case, *nuq* "what?") function the same way pronouns do in
>
> questions with "to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question
>
> *yIH nuq*? "What is a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement *yIH
> 'oH*
>
> "It is a tribble" (where * yIH *is "tribble" and *'oH *is "it"). The
> answer to the question *yIH nuq*? ("What is a tribble?") would presumably
> be a
>
> definition or description of a tribble. This being the case, then, the
>
> answer to the question * jarlIj qaq nuq*? ("What is your preferable
> month?") would presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But
> this is not what you want to find out by asking your question. What you
> really mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one do you
> prefer?"
>
>
>
> The first word in your sentence, *jarlIj*, means "your month" (*jar *"mon=
th,"
> *-lIj *"your"). But given that what you're really asking is "Which month
> do you prefer?" it's not really "your month" at all. The "you" should go
> with the verb, not with "month."
>
>
>
> Which brings us to the verb. You use *qaq*, "be preferable," adjectivall=
y
>
> (*jarlIj qaq *is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is
> better
>
> expressed by using the verb *maS *"prefer" with "you" as the subject:
> *jar*
>
> *DamaS* "you prefer the month." If you want to highlight the notion of
>
> "most prefer," you can use the emphatic suffix -*qu'*: *jar DamaSqu'* "yo=
u
>
> very much prefer the month." (In this case, since "prefer" involves
>
> making a choice, the one chosen is automatically the one that is "most"
>
> preferred.)
>
>
>
> So what about the "what" (or "which") of your original question
>
> ("What/which is your favorite month?")? When asking someone a question o=
f
>
> this type, you are really asking him or her to make a choice. So just be
>
> a Klingon and order them to do so: "Identify the month that you very much
> prefer!":
>
>
>
> * jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu' *
>
>
>
> *DamaSqu'bogh *"that you very much prefer" (*DamaSqu' *"you very much
> prefer
>
> it" plus -*bogh *"which," the relative-clause marker) modifies *jar *
> "month"
>
> and the whole phrase *jar DamaSqu'bogh *"the month that you very much
>
> prefer" is the object of the verb *ngu'* ("identify"), which is preceded
> by the imperative prefix *yI*- ("do something to it!").
>
>
>
> Given that there's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's not yet
> known, you did a good job coming up with the translations you came up
> with. I hope my explanations and clarifications make sense.
>
>
>
> ************************************************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> *On Behalf Of *SuStel
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM
>
>
>
> On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
>
> I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.
>
> lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq} and
> {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?
>
> *paw,* not *paw'* (unless the arrival was very rough!).
>
> *nuq* goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the same
> sentence with a substitution for *nuq,* then the question is not formed
> correctly.
>
> If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the *Enterprise*
> arrived, then the answer is *pawta' 'entepray'.* But this isn't in the
> same form that you asked it, because it doesn't include the word *Duj.*
> So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful.
>
> There *are* some answers that would fit, like, say, *pawta' DIvI' Duj.*
> But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask questions th=
is
> way.
>
> In any case, we've never seen Okrand use *nuq* or *'Iv* in a noun-noun
> construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unknown.
>
> The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: *paw't=
a'bogh
> Duj yIngu'** identify the ship that has arrived!* If you're not asking
> for a name, you might get more specific, like *pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu'*=
*identify
> the type of ship that has arrived!*
>
> --
>
> SuStel
>
> http://trimboli.name
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
> tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
> http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
>
>
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<p dir=3D"ltr">SuStel:<br>
> There=C2=A0<i>are</i>=C2=A0some answers that would fit, like,<br>
> say,=C2=A0<b>pawta' DIvI' Duj.</b></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">yes, indeed; that's why I used two variants of the quest=
ion: {pawta' nuq Duj} in case the answer would be {pawta' DIvI'=
Duj}, and {paw'ta' Duj nuq} in case the answer would be {pawta'=
; Duj qIj}.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">anyway, I understand now. thanks !</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">qunnoH jan puqloD<br>
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 Dec 2016 7:=
13 pm, "Steven Boozer" <<a href=3D"mailto:sboozer@uchicago.edu=
">sboozer@uchicago.edu</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_4884275850033058114WordSection1">
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546a">SuStel is using=
the method for translating =E2=80=9Cwhich/what is X?=E2=80=9D that Okrand =
introduced on the old
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">msn.onstage.startrek.expert.<wbr>ok=
rand</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sa=
ns-serif;color:#44546a"> =C2=A0BBS.=C2=A0 FYI here is the relevant part of =
his post (unformatted):<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">******************************<wbr>******************************<wbr>=
************<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">From: MarcOkrand=C2=A0 <=E2=80=A6><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.<wbr>okrand<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">Date: December 12, 1996<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">Subject: What do you think?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0 [. . . .]<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">(2) You suggested translating "What is your favorite month?"=
as:
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <b>jarlIj qaq nuq</b>?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">This one's a little easier to deal with.=C2=A0 Your sentence liter=
ally means<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">"What is your preferable month?"=C2=A0 The basic syntax is c=
orrect.=C2=A0 Question<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">words (in this case, <b>nuq</b> "what?") function the same w=
ay pronouns do in<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">questions with "to be" in the English translations.=C2=A0 Th=
us, the question<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">yIH nuq</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">? "What is =
a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement
<b>yIH 'oH</b><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">"It is a tribble" (where <b>
yIH </b>is "tribble" and <b>'oH </b>is "it").=C2=A0=
The answer to the question <b>yIH nuq</b>? ("What is a tribble?"=
) would presumably be a<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">definition or description of a tribble.=C2=A0 This being the case, the=
n, the<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">answer to the question <b>
jarlIj qaq nuq</b>?=C2=A0 ("What is your preferable month?") woul=
d presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But this i=
s not what you want to find out by asking your question.=C2=A0 What you rea=
lly mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one
do you prefer?" <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">The first word in your sentence,
<b>jarlIj</b>, means "your month" (<b>jar </b>"month," =
<b>-lIj </b>"your").=C2=A0 But given that what you're really =
asking is "Which month do you prefer?" it's not really "=
your month" at all.=C2=A0 The "you" should go with the verb,=
not with "month."
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">Which brings us to the verb.=C2=A0 You use
<b>qaq</b>, "be preferable," adjectivally<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">(<b>jarlIj qaq </b>is "your preferable month").=C2=A0 I thin=
k what you mean is better<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">expressed by using the verb
<b>maS </b>"prefer" with "you" as the subject: <b>jar<u=
></u><u></u></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">DamaS</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> "you prefer =
the month."=C2=A0 If you want to highlight the notion of<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">"most prefer," you can use the emphatic suffix -<b>qu'</=
b>:
<b>jar DamaSqu'</b> "you<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">very much prefer the month."=C2=A0 (In this case, since "pre=
fer" involves<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">making a choice, the one chosen is automatically the one that is "=
;most"<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">preferred.) <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">So what about the "what" (or "which") of your orig=
inal question<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">("What/which is your favorite month?")?=C2=A0 When asking so=
meone a question of<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">this type, you are really asking him or her to make a choice.=C2=A0 So=
just be<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">a Klingon and order them to do so: "Identify the month that you v=
ery much prefer!":
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu'
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">DamaSqu'bogh </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">"=
that you very much prefer" (<b>DamaSqu'
</b>"you very much prefer<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">it" plus -<b>bogh </b>"which," the relative-clause mark=
er) modifies
<b>jar </b>"month"<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">and the whole phrase <b>jar DamaSqu'bogh
</b>"the month that you very much<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">prefer" is the object of the verb
<b>ngu'</b> ("identify"), which is preceded by the imperative=
prefix <b>yI</b>- ("do something to it!").
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">Given that there's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's n=
ot yet known, you did a good job coming up with the translations you came u=
p with.=C2=A0 I hope my explanations and clarifications make sense.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"m_4884275850033058114MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt">******************************<wbr>******************************<wbr>=
************<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">On Behalf Of
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
sans-serif;color:windowtext">SuStel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p>lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw't=
a' Duj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</blockquote>
<p><b>paw,</b> not <b>paw'</b> (unless the arrival was very rough!).<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p><b>nuq</b> goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't th=
e same sentence with a substitution for
<b>nuq,</b> then the question is not formed correctly.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the <i>Enterprise</=
i> arrived, then the answer is
<b>pawta' 'entepray'.</b> But this isn't in the same form t=
hat you asked it, because it doesn't include the word
<b>Duj.</b> So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p>There <i>are</i> some answers that would fit, like, say, <b>pawta' D=
IvI' Duj.</b> But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to =
ask questions this way.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>In any case, we've never seen Okrand use <b>nuq</b> or <b>'Iv</b=
> in a noun-noun construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed =
is unknown.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: <b>pa=
w'ta'bogh Duj yIngu'</b><i> identify the ship that has arrived!=
</i> If you're not asking for a name, you might get more specific, like
<b>pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu'</b> <i>identify the type of ship that =
has arrived!</i><u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>-- <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>SuStel<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"http://trimboli.name" target=3D"_blank">http://trimboli.nam=
e</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
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