[108401] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] Who shall call them from the twilight ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Wed Dec 14 12:48:33 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2016 17:13:05 +0000
In-Reply-To: <9c4837cd-972b-b102-ac87-5c77ccba0f8c@trimboli.name>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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SuStel is using the method for translating "which/what is X?" that Okrand i=
ntroduced on the old msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand BBS. FYI here is =
the relevant part of his post (unformatted):
************************************************************************
From: MarcOkrand <...>
Newsgroups: msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand
Date: December 12, 1996
Subject: What do you think?
[. . . .]
(2) You suggested translating "What is your favorite month?" as:
jarlIj qaq nuq?
This one's a little easier to deal with. Your sentence literally means
"What is your preferable month?" The basic syntax is correct. Question
words (in this case, nuq "what?") function the same way pronouns do in
questions with "to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question
yIH nuq? "What is a tribble?" is exactly parallel the statement yIH 'oH
"It is a tribble" (where yIH is "tribble" and 'oH is "it"). The answer to =
the question yIH nuq? ("What is a tribble?") would presumably be a
definition or description of a tribble. This being the case, then, the
answer to the question jarlIj qaq nuq? ("What is your preferable month?") =
would presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But this is not =
what you want to find out by asking your question. What you really mean to=
ask is something like "Of all the months, which one do you prefer?"
The first word in your sentence, jarlIj, means "your month" (jar "month," -=
lIj "your"). But given that what you're really asking is "Which month do y=
ou prefer?" it's not really "your month" at all. The "you" should go with =
the verb, not with "month."
Which brings us to the verb. You use qaq, "be preferable," adjectivally
(jarlIj qaq is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is better
expressed by using the verb maS "prefer" with "you" as the subject: jar
DamaS "you prefer the month." If you want to highlight the notion of
"most prefer," you can use the emphatic suffix -qu': jar DamaSqu' "you
very much prefer the month." (In this case, since "prefer" involves
making a choice, the one chosen is automatically the one that is "most"
preferred.)
So what about the "what" (or "which") of your original question
("What/which is your favorite month?")? When asking someone a question of
this type, you are really asking him or her to make a choice. So just be
a Klingon and order them to do so: "Identify the month that you very much p=
refer!":
jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu'
DamaSqu'bogh "that you very much prefer" (DamaSqu' "you very much prefer
it" plus -bogh "which," the relative-clause marker) modifies jar "month"
and the whole phrase jar DamaSqu'bogh "the month that you very much
prefer" is the object of the verb ngu' ("identify"), which is preceded by t=
he imperative prefix yI- ("do something to it!").
Given that there's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's not yet known,=
you did a good job coming up with the translations you came up with. I ho=
pe my explanations and clarifications make sense.
************************************************************************
On Behalf Of SuStel
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM
On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:
I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.
lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' Duj nuq} and {=
paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?
paw, not paw' (unless the arrival was very rough!).
nuq goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the same sentenc=
e with a substitution for nuq, then the question is not formed correctly.
If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the Enterprise arrived=
, then the answer is pawta' 'entepray'. But this isn't in the same form tha=
t you asked it, because it doesn't include the word Duj. So the entire meth=
od of asking the question is doubtful.
There are some answers that would fit, like, say, pawta' DIvI' Duj. But not=
every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask questions this way.
In any case, we've never seen Okrand use nuq or 'Iv in a noun-noun construc=
tion like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unknown.
The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: paw'ta'b=
ogh Duj yIngu' identify the ship that has arrived! If you're not asking for=
a name, you might get more specific, like pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu' identi=
fy the type of ship that has arrived!
--
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Arial",sans-serif;color:#44546A">SuStel is using the method for trans=
lating “which/what is X?” that Okrand introduced on the old
</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">msn.onstage.startrek.expert.okrand<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-se=
rif;color:#44546A"> BBS. FYI here is the relevant part of his p=
ost (unformatted):<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">****************=
********************************************************<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">From: MarcOkrand=
<…><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Newsgroups: msn.=
onstage.startrek.expert.okrand<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Date: December 1=
2, 1996<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Subject: What do=
you think?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> [. =
. . .]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(2) You suggeste=
d translating "What is your favorite month?" as:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> &nbs=
p; <b>jarlIj qaq nuq</b>?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">This one's a lit=
tle easier to deal with. Your sentence literally means<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">"What is yo=
ur preferable month?" The basic syntax is correct. Questio=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">words (in this c=
ase, <b>nuq</b> "what?") function the same way pronouns do in<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">questions with &=
quot;to be" in the English translations. Thus, the question<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">yIH nuq</span=
></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">? "What is a tribble?" is e=
xactly parallel the statement
<b>yIH 'oH</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">"It is a tr=
ibble" (where <b>
yIH </b>is "tribble" and <b>'oH </b>is "it"). The=
answer to the question <b>yIH nuq</b>? ("What is a tribble?") wo=
uld presumably be a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">definition or de=
scription of a tribble. This being the case, then, the<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">answer to the qu=
estion <b>
jarlIj qaq nuq</b>? ("What is your preferable month?") woul=
d presumably be a definition of "your favorite month." But this i=
s not what you want to find out by asking your question. What you rea=
lly mean to ask is something like "Of all the months, which one
do you prefer?" <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">The first word i=
n your sentence,
<b>jarlIj</b>, means "your month" (<b>jar </b>"month," =
<b>-lIj </b>"your"). But given that what you're really aski=
ng is "Which month do you prefer?" it's not really "your mon=
th" at all. The "you" should go with the verb, not wit=
h "month."
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Which brings us =
to the verb. You use
<b>qaq</b>, "be preferable," adjectivally<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">(<b>jarlIj qaq <=
/b>is "your preferable month"). I think what you mean is be=
tter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">expressed by usi=
ng the verb
<b>maS </b>"prefer" with "you" as the subject: <b>jar<o=
:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">DamaS</span><=
/b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> "you prefer the month." =
; If you want to highlight the notion of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">"most prefe=
r," you can use the emphatic suffix -<b>qu'</b>:
<b>jar DamaSqu'</b> "you<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">very much prefer=
the month." (In this case, since "prefer" involves<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">making a choice,=
the one chosen is automatically the one that is "most"<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">preferred.) <o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">So what about th=
e "what" (or "which") of your original question<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">("What/whic=
h is your favorite month?")? When asking someone a question of<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">this type, you a=
re really asking him or her to make a choice. So just be<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">a Klingon and or=
der them to do so: "Identify the month that you very much prefer!"=
;:
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> &=
nbsp; jar DamaSqu'bogh yIngu'
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">DamaSqu'bogh =
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">"that you very much prefer=
" (<b>DamaSqu'
</b>"you very much prefer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">it" plus -<=
b>bogh </b>"which," the relative-clause marker) modifies
<b>jar </b>"month"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">and the whole ph=
rase <b>jar DamaSqu'bogh
</b>"the month that you very much<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">prefer" is =
the object of the verb
<b>ngu'</b> ("identify"), which is preceded by the imperative pre=
fix <b>yI</b>- ("do something to it!").
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Given that there=
's an awful lot about Klingon grammar that's not yet known, you did a good =
job coming up with the translations you came up with. I hope my expla=
nations and clarifications make sense.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">****************=
********************************************************<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial",sans-serif;color:#44546A"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
;Calibri",sans-serif;color:windowtext">On Behalf Of
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
sans-serif;color:windowtext">SuStel<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 14, 2016 10:47 AM<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 12/14/2016 11:17 AM, mayqel qunenoS wrote:<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p>I'm just asking in order to make sure I understand this correctly.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p>lets say I want to ask "which ship arrived ?". both {paw'ta' D=
uj nuq} and {paw'ta' nuq Duj} are wrong, right ?<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p><b>paw,</b> not <b>paw'</b> (unless the arrival was very rough!).<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p><b>nuq</b> goes into the place of the answer. If the answer isn't the sa=
me sentence with a substitution for
<b>nuq,</b> then the question is not formed correctly.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>If the answer to the question is, for instance, that the <i>Enterprise</=
i> arrived, then the answer is
<b>pawta' 'entepray'.</b> But this isn't in the same form that you asked it=
, because it doesn't include the word
<b>Duj.</b> So the entire method of asking the question is doubtful.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p>There <i>are</i> some answers that would fit, like, say, <b>pawta' DIvI'=
Duj.</b> But not every answer will fit, so you may not be able to ask ques=
tions this way.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>In any case, we've never seen Okrand use <b>nuq</b> or <b>'Iv</b> in a n=
oun-noun construction like this, so whether or not this is allowed is unkno=
wn.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p>The most common thing to do is turn it into a command to identify: <b>pa=
w'ta'bogh Duj yIngu'</b><i> identify the ship that has arrived!</i> If you'=
re not asking for a name, you might get more specific, like
<b>pawta'bogh Duj Sar yIngu'</b> <i>identify the type of ship that has arri=
ved!</i><o:p></o:p></p>
<pre>-- <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SuStel<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a href=3D"http://trimboli.name">http://trimboli.name</a><o:p></o:p></=
pre>
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