[108346] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Felix Malmenbeck)
Sat Dec 10 12:29:30 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
From: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 17:29:21 +0000
In-Reply-To: <20161210170352.GA10803@eriophora>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
(Sorry for the spam, SuStel; you'll be getting this message twice because I=
failed to Reply All. latlh qabDaq qul yIchenmoH HIvqa'DI' veqlargh.)
> In his recent =93Klingon 101=94 lecture, Okrand explained the rules of a =
Klingon syllable,
> though I think he forgot to include final rgh.
Ah, interesting; nice to have something firm to go on. I've been meaning to=
watch that, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
> I don=92t do this. I don=92t think I=92ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klin=
gon doesn't schwa
> vowels the way English does. Where does this idea come from?
It's primarily my observation of how Marc pronounces words such as tera'nga=
n and Ha'DIbaH in Conversational Klingon, Power Klingon and the like. The v=
owels certainly aren't omitted or schwa'd; it's more like the vowel is shor=
tened slightly and the brief pause between syllables that gives Klingon a b=
it of a choppy sound is omitted, allowing the syllables to flow seamlessly =
into each other.
> -oy is not a syllable; it=92s a suffix.
What I mean is, when appended to a word that end with a consonant, does tha=
t consonant stay part of the stem (CVC-oy) or does it "transfer" to the new=
syllable containing -oy (CV-Coy)? The va-VOY example - while, as you say, =
at least one step removed from Okrand's own mouth - seems to example that n=
ot only does it "break off" the final consonant, but it also gives stress t=
o the syllable containing -oy, making it one (of quite a few) exception to =
the "last syllable of the stem unless there's a syllable ending with a glot=
tal stop" stress rule of thumb.
I wonder if this would still happen to a word ending in a glottal stop. It'=
s also be interesting to know how words ending with one of the permitted co=
nsonant clusters are handled. If you call your sweetkins {burghoy}, do you =
pronounce it bur-GHOY, BUR-ghoy, BURGH-oy or burgh-OY?
________________________________________
From: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org> on behalf of kechpa=
ja <kechpaja@comcast.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 18:03
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:54:58AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:39 AM, kechpaja <kechpaja@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2016 at 10:19:50AM -0500, Michael Roney, Jr. wrote:
> > > Speaking of syllables, there are 2,541 possible syllables in Klingon.
> >
> > How did you arrive at that number? I'm getting 2625 =3D 21 initials X 5
> > vowels X (24 finals + null final).
> >
>
> Did you subtract the (ow, ow', uw, uw') endings?
>
No =97 that makes more sense now.
I guess this leads to another question, though: do we actually have
reason to assume that {-oy} can be a syllable in its own right? Based on
the description given in KGT, I've always assumed that it was never
intended to be a valid syllable on its own, but rather would adopt the
final consonant of the preceding mopheme as its onset.
Do we have any canon examples of {-oy} being attached to a word that
ends in a vowel?
- SapIr
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