[108333] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (sustel@trimboli.name)
Sat Dec 10 08:48:45 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
To: Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se>,
"tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
From: <sustel@trimboli.name>
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2016 08:48:12 -0500
In-Reply-To: <ED2325E2-A4F8-48D9-A471-9A6D7783AE5D@kth.se>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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=E2=80=9CIt's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon sylla=
ble structure have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on o=
bservation=E2=80=9D
In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lecture, Okrand explained the r=
ules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to include final rgh.
=E2=80=9CIn the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lul=
Igh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllab=
le ends and the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so =
that the two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and v=
erengan sounds like "vrengan".
I don=E2=80=99t do this. I don=E2=80=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever heard Okra=
nd do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vowels the way English does. Where does t=
his idea come from?
=E2=80=9CThis confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this=
the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress =
pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable become=
s -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up soundin=
g like "jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D
-oy is not a syllable; it=E2=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usually added to=
a word ending in a consonant, and TKD suggests that a =E2=80=98 is added f=
irst if the word ends in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable.=
Though I don=E2=80=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=99 pronunciations,=
I will point out that Azetbur pronounces vavoy as va-VOY.
--=20
SuStel
http://trimboli.name
From: Felix Malmenbeck
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM
To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org
Subject: Re: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?
It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable struc=
ture have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observatio=
n.
The majority of all cases can be described as such:
Every syllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.
This may be (and usually is) followed by a consonant, or one of the three p=
ermissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' or -y'.
No syllable ends on -ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.
So single syllable options are:
CV - tI Do ta ...
CVC - batlh chuch por ...
CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...
CVw' - maw' =C2=A0law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't appear to be a=
ny -ew' or -Iw' words)
CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)
After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which may also f=
ollow any of these forms.
For example:
CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan
CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'
CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho
CV-CV-CVC - verengan
CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH
In the event where the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIre=
Qtagh, ...), there may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends a=
nd the other ends. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the =
two syllables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan s=
ounds like "vrengan".
This confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only=
syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern o=
f the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (=
for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "j=
poy"?)
There are still exceptions to these "rules", such as those seen in non-Klin=
ogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (paq'batlh, tog'det q'uti =
'qoolit).
Best wishes,
loghaD (CV-CVC)
10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun@gmail.com>:
lieven:
> '-I-n =3D C-V-C
> S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
> Why the confusion?
according to the rule of cvc, how come that after the {n} the {S} follows ?=
this produces (cvccvc).
the rule refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvc=
vcvcvc..) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a con=
sonant always a vowel follows.
qunnoH jan puqloD
ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeHta'
On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 10.12.2016 um 11:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:
we are always saying that klingon phonology utilizes cvc. so, how do you
explain {'InSong} ?
'-I-n =3D C-V-C
S-o-ng =3D C-V-C
Why the confusion?
--=20
Lieven L. Litaer
aka Quvar valer 'utlh
Grammarian of the KLI
http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
_______________________________________________
tlhIngan-Hol mailing list
tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org
http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3D"#954F72"><div cla=
ss=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9C=
It's worth stating that I don't believe the rules of Klingon syllable struc=
ture have ever been directly stated, but rather this is based on observatio=
n=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>In his recent =E2=80=9CKlingon 101=E2=80=9D lecture, Okrand ex=
plained the rules of a Klingon syllable, though I think he forgot to includ=
e final <b>rgh.</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>=E2=80=9CIn the event wher=
e the forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), ther=
e may be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends=
. Normally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syl=
lables almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verenga=
n sounds like "vrengan".<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t do this. I don=E2=80=
=99t think I=E2=80=99ve ever heard Okrand do this. Klingon doesn't schwa vo=
wels the way English does. Where does this idea come from?</p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in=
'>=E2=80=9CThis confusion might also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is th=
is the only syllable that can begin on a vowel? Or does it change the stres=
s pattern of the word it's appended to in such a way that the syllable beco=
mes -Coy? (for example, would jupoy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sound=
ing like "jpoy"?)=E2=80=9D<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:=
p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>-oy</b> is not a syllable; it=E2=
=80=99s a suffix. It=E2=80=99s usually added to a word ending in a consonan=
t, and TKD suggests that a <b>=E2=80=98</b> is added first if the word ends=
in a vowel. Adding the suffix completes the syllable. Though I don=E2=80=
=99t give much weight to actors=E2=80=99 pronunciations, I will point out t=
hat Azetbur pronounces <b>vavoy</b> as <b>va-VOY.<o:p></o:p></b></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <br>SuStel<br>ht=
tp://trimboli.name</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style=
=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;=
padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'border:none;paddin=
g:0in'><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se">Felix Malmenbeck</a><b=
r><b>Sent: </b>Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:30 AM<br><b>To: </b><a href=3D=
"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><b>Subject: </b>R=
e: [tlhIngan Hol] How do you explain {'InSong} ?</p></div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It's worth stating that I don=
't believe the rules of Klingon syllable structure have ever been directly =
stated, but rather this is based on observation.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>The majo=
rity of all cases can be described as such:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Every s=
yllable begins with a consonant, followed by a vowel.<o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This may be (and usually is) followed by a consona=
nt, or one of the three permissible terminal consonant clusters: -rgh, -w' =
or -y'.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>No syllable ends on -=
ow, -ow', -uw or -uw'.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>So single syllable options a=
re:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>CV - tI Do ta ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>CVC - batlh chuch por ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>CVrgh - 'argh burgh qorgh ...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>CVw' - maw' law' ghaw' ... (interestingly, there don't=
appear to be any -ew' or -Iw' words)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>CVy' - lay' loy' bey' ... (no known -Iy' examples)<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>After one of these, you are freee tonstart a new syllable, which m=
ay also follow any of these forms.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For example:<o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>CVC-CVC - 'InSong, bobcho', lalDan<o:p></o:p></p></div=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>CV-CVC - lulIgh, qama'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>CVC-CV - HaSta, yergho<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>CV-CV-CVC - verengan<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>CVC-CV-CVC - Ha'DIbaH<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>In the event where the=
forst syllable is simply CV (tera'ngan, lulIgh, bIreQtagh, ...), there may=
be room for interpretation where one syllable ends and the other ends. Nor=
mally, the CV syllable gets "swallowed", so that the two syllable=
s almost sound like one; tera' sounds like "vra" and verengan sou=
nds like "vrengan".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>This confusion might =
also arise when using the -oy suffix. Is this the only syllable that can be=
gin on a vowel? Or does it change the stress pattern of the word it's appen=
ded to in such a way that the syllable becomes -Coy? (for example, would ju=
poy be ju-poy, perhaps just ending up sounding like "jpoy"?)<o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>There are still exceptions to these "rules", such a=
s those seen in non-Klinogn names (qIrq, pIqarD, 'oqranD) and in no' Hol (p=
aq'batlh, tog'det q'uti 'qoolit).<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best wishes,<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div id=3DAppleMailSignature><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>loghaD (CV-CVC)<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>10 dec. 2016 kl. 11:27 skrev=
mayqel qunenoS <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.com<=
/a>>:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-b=
ottom:5.0pt'><div><p>lieven:<br>> '-I-n =3D C-V-C<br>> S-o-ng =3D C-V=
-C<br>> Why the confusion?</p><p>according to the rule of cvc, how come =
that after the {n} the {S} follows ? this produces (cvccvc).</p><p>the rule=
refers to clusters of three (cvc-cvc-cvc), or does it go like (cvcvcvcvc..=
) ? so far I thought that according to this rule, right after a consonant a=
lways a vowel follows.</p><p>qunnoH jan puqloD<br>ghoghwIj HablI'vo' vIngeH=
ta'</p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>On 10 Dec 2016 12:16 pm, "Lieven" <<a href=3D"mailto:levi=
nius@gmx.de">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=
=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;m=
argin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Am 10.12.2016 um 11=
:01 schrieb mayqel qunenoS:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;=
border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt=
;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>we are always saying that klingon p=
honology utilizes cvc. so, how do you<br>explain {'InSong} ?<o:p></o:p></p>=
</blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>'-I-n =3D C-V-C<br>S-o-ng =3D C-V-C<b=
r><br>Why the confusion?<br><br><br>-- <br>Lieven L. Litaer<br>aka Quvar va=
ler 'utlh<br>Grammarian of the KLI<br><a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Kl=
ingonteacher" target=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><=
br><a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Phonology</a><br>______________________________=
_________________<br>tlhIngan-Hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:tlhInga=
n-Hol@lists.kli.org" target=3D"_blank">tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org</a><br><a=
href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org" target=3D"=
_blank">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><o:p></o:=
p></p></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-=
left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>tlhIngan-Hol =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:tlhIngan-Hol@lists.kli.org">tlhIngan-Hol@=
lists.kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-=
hol-kli.org">http://lists.kli.org/listinfo.cgi/tlhingan-hol-kli.org</a><o:p=
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