[108283] in tlhIngan-Hol
[tlhIngan Hol] More on {-moH} and tritransitive verbs
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?Q?Michael_K=C3=BAnin?=)
Thu Dec 8 14:47:03 2016
X-Original-To: tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 19:46:59 +0000 (UTC)
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Michael_K=C3=BAnin?= <netzakh@yahoo.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@lists.kli.org>
Reply-To: tlhingan-hol@kli.org,
=?UTF-8?Q?Michael_K=C3=BAnin?= <netzakh@yahoo.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@lists.kli.org
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Starting with what we know well:
1. Intransitive -> Transitive
{yIt K} "K walks"
{K yItmoH F} "F makes K walk" / "F walks K"
2. Transitive -> Ditransitive
{X ghoj K} "K learns X"
{KvaD X ghojmoH F} "F makes K learn X" / "F teaches X to K"
And now the step to the unknown:
3. Ditransitive -> Tritransitive
{ZvaD X nob K} "K gives X to Z"
Goal: "F makes K give X to Z"
3.1. By the logic "expand 2. above," we start with "F makes K give X":
{KvaD X nobmoH F}
Then we need to insert Z somehow
*{ZvaD KvaD X nobmoH F} is clearly ambiguous
*{Z'e' KvaD X nobmoH F} "As for Z, F makes K give X"
3.2. By the logic "keep existing objects and make the original subject as c=
lose as possible," we start with
*{Zvad X nobmoH F}
and need to insert K somehow
*{K'e' ZvaD X nobmoH F}?
note that if this logic applies, then we cannot mechanically translate this=
"As for K, F makes Z give X" just as {KvaD X ghojmoH F} does not mean *"F =
makes X learn for K" but "F makes K learn X"
3.3. Lieven's suggestion
*{X'e' ZvaD K nobmoH F}
...if=C2=A0would be so much easier if {KvaD X ghojmoH F} were *{X'e' K ghoj=
moH F}... but this does not exclude that the tritransitive construction, if=
any, works this way
3.4. Semantically, what about
*{ZvaD Kvo' X noblu'moH F} or=C2=A0 *{Kvo' ZvaD X noblu'moH F}?
however,=C2=A0itdoes not seem so easy to use this approach with {'ang} or {=
cha'}
3.5. [rant] And now remove F, add {-wI'}, and consider using it as a headin=
g. [/rant]
P.S. To avoid confusion: {mayqel qunenoS} and I are different persons.
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3001"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481=
225352163_2989">Starting with what we know well:</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0=
_ym19_1_1481225352163_2988"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14812253=
52163_2990"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3495">1. I=
ntransitive -> Transitive</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148122535216=
3_2991"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3494">{yIt K} =
"K walks"</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3000"><br></div><=
div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3087" dir=3D"ltr">{K yItmoH F} "F=
makes K walk" / "F walks K"</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148122535216=
3_2999" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_29=
98" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">2. Transitive -> Ditransitive=
</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3120" dir=3D"ltr"><br></di=
v><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3021" dir=3D"ltr">{X ghoj K} "=
K learns X"</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3121" dir=3D"lt=
r"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3122" dir=3D"ltr">{=
KvaD X ghojmoH F} "F makes K learn X" / "F teaches X to K"</div><div id=3D"=
yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3123" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3124" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3493" dir=3D"ltr">And now the step to the unknown:<=
/div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3492" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div=
><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3125" dir=3D"ltr">3. Ditransiti=
ve -> Tritransitive</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3132=
" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3126" di=
r=3D"ltr">{ZvaD X nob K} "K gives X to Z"</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1=
_1481225352163_3127" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148=
1225352163_3128" dir=3D"ltr">Goal: "F makes K give X to Z"</div><div id=3D"=
yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3129" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_=
3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3130" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3188" dir=3D"ltr">3.1. By the logic "expand 2. abov=
e," we start with "F makes K give X":</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_148=
1225352163_3131" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225=
352163_3185" dir=3D"ltr">{KvaD X nobmoH F}</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_=
1_1481225352163_3270" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14=
81225352163_3189" dir=3D"ltr">Then we need to insert Z somehow</div><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3195" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"=
yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3190" dir=3D"ltr">*{ZvaD KvaD X nobmoH F} i=
s clearly ambiguous</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3196" d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3240" dir=
=3D"ltr">*{Z'e' KvaD X nobmoH F} "As for Z, F makes K give X"</div><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_2992"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_y=
m19_1_1481225352163_3480"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352=
163_3496">3.2. By the logic "keep existing objects and make the original su=
bject as close as possible," we start with</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_=
1_1481225352163_3249"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_=
3241">*{Zvad X nobmoH F}</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_32=
71"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3248">and need to =
insert K somehow</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3242"><br>=
</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3244" dir=3D"ltr">*{K'e' Z=
vaD X nobmoH F}?</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3243" dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3247" dir=3D"=
ltr">note that if this logic applies, then we cannot mechanically translate=
this "As for K, F makes Z give X" just as {KvaD X ghojmoH F} does not mean=
*"F makes X learn for K" but "F makes K learn X"</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_=
0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3245"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225=
352163_3336"><br></div><div>3.3. Lieven's suggestion</div><div id=3D"yui_3_=
16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3298"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481=
225352163_3339">*{X'e' ZvaD K nobmoH F}</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1=
481225352163_3346"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_338=
0" dir=3D"ltr">...if would be so much easier if {KvaD X ghojmoH F} wer=
e *{X'e' K ghojmoH F}... but this does not exclude that the tritransitive c=
onstruction, if any, works this way</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_14812=
25352163_3379"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3246"><=
br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3503">3.4. Semantically=
, what about</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3272"><br></di=
v><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3156" dir=3D"ltr">*{ZvaD Kvo' =
X noblu'moH F} or *{Kvo' ZvaD X noblu'moH F}?</div><div id=3D"yui_3_1=
6_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3481" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_=
ym19_1_1481225352163_3482" dir=3D"ltr">however, itdoes not seem so eas=
y to use this approach with {'ang} or {cha'}</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym1=
9_1_1481225352163_2997" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_=
1481225352163_3344" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">3.5. [rant] And =
now remove F, add {-wI'}, and consider using it as a heading. [/rant]</div>=
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3345" dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div=
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_3285">P.S. To avoid confusion: {mayq=
el qunenoS} and I are different persons.</div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_=
1481225352163_3491"><br id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1481225352163_2949"></div><=
/div></body></html>
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