[102894] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Fri Dec 4 14:04:10 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 14:03:50 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <5661DE1B.2070205@trimboli.name>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Points taken.
I=92ve long suspected that {Hov ghajbe=92bogh ram rur pegh ghajbe=92bogh =
jaj} doesn=92t need emphasis because in Klingon likely it is not the =
case that the day (which does not have secrets) resembles the night =
(which does not have stars). It=92s a larger comparison than that: (a =
day which does not have secrets) resembles (a night which does not have =
stars). It=92s not the day and the night that are alike. It=92s the =
quality of lacking something essential that is the same between the two. =
Each entire clause represents a noun that isn=92t stated explicitly.
Besides, it verges on poetry, and when you cross the line into poetry, =
all grammatical bets are off. I think it=92s the most poetic thing =
Okrand has written yet. Besides the one word {tlhonmey}, that is. That =
should be both the title and content of a famous Klingon poem.
Just say it in a crowd of Klingons, and watch them all become quiet and =
thoughtful.
tlhonmey!
(and think of me when someone does this at the next qep=92a=92.)
This could be MY first contribution to the Universe=92s collection of =
Klingon poetry. And it could be the most fun, stupid thing to do since =
{ghobe=92! SuD!}
But not nearly as fun as {yIH ghupbogh be=92 qan}. THAT was BRILLIANT. =
And it scans better without the {-pu=92}, so you have poetic license.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 1:40 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>=20
> On 12/4/2015 1:25 PM, Will Martin wrote:
>> HoDpu'=92e=92 nIv Qanqor.
>>=20
>> It basically means, =93Krankor is superior (while you think about
>> captains).=94 So, you might translate that is =93Krankor is superior =
among
>> captains.=94 Okrand explains this as a =93topicalizer=94, suggesting =
that you
>> are presenting the topic of the sentence, but given some of the canon
>> examples, there are those here who strongly believe that he picked =
the
>> wrong word, even though he apparently picked the RIGHT word when he
>> picked =93perfective=94 for {-pu=92}, even as his description of =
{-pu=92} didn=92t
>> really convey what perfective apparently means.
>=20
> It's not the same thing. {-'e'} is described in TKD as a topicalizer, =
marking the topic of the sentence. The examples of its use in TKD that =
claim it's a topicalizer shows its use as emphasis, which is a different =
thing. TKD does not, I think, have a true example of {-'e'} as topic, =
though we have at least one in canon.
>=20
> Meanwhile, {-pu'} is explained correctly by Okrand, but =
simplistically. "An action is completed" is what TKD says, and it is =
what perfective means. For years we tried to add the idea of "... before =
the time context," which does not appear in TKD, and which does not =
describe the perfective.
>=20
> By the way, qunnoQ, using {-'e'} to mark to head noun of a relative =
clause is optional. Do it if you want to clarify whether the head noun =
is the subject or object of the relative clause.
>=20
> Here's a canonical example of a relative clause without the optional =
{-'e'}:
>=20
> Hov ghajbe'bogh ram rur pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj
> a day without secrets is like a night without stars
>=20
> If you wanted to use the optional {-'e'} on both relative clauses, it =
would look like this:
>=20
> Hov ghajbe'bogh ram'e' rur pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj'e'
>=20
> Sometimes it is not important to disambiguate. Sometimes it is helpful =
not to. I once write a song called {yIH ghupbogh be' qan} and I liked =
the ambiguity: is it "the old woman who swallowed a tribble" or is it =
"the tribble which the old woman swallowed"? Does it matter?
>=20
> (If I were writing it today, I'd have said {yIH ghuppu'bogh be' qan}.
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://www.trimboli.name/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Points taken.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=92ve long suspected that {Hov =
ghajbe=92bogh ram rur pegh ghajbe=92bogh jaj} doesn=92t need emphasis =
because in Klingon likely it is not the case that the day (which does =
not have secrets) resembles the night (which does not have stars). It=92s =
a larger comparison than that: (a day which does not have secrets) =
resembles (a night which does not have stars). It=92s not the day and =
the night that are alike. It=92s the quality of lacking something =
essential that is the same between the two. Each entire clause =
represents a noun that isn=92t stated explicitly.</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Besides, it verges on poetry, and when =
you cross the line into poetry, all grammatical bets are off. I think =
it=92s the most poetic thing Okrand has written yet. Besides the one =
word {tlhonmey}, that is. That should be both the title and content of a =
famous Klingon poem.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Just say it in a crowd of Klingons, and watch them all become =
quiet and thoughtful.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">tlhonmey!</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">(and think of me when someone does this at the next =
qep=92a=92.)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This could be MY first contribution to the Universe=92s =
collection of Klingon poetry. And it could be the most fun, stupid thing =
to do since {ghobe=92! SuD!}</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But not nearly as fun as {yIH ghupbogh =
be=92 qan}. THAT was BRILLIANT. And it scans better without the {-pu=92}, =
so you have poetic license.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 4, 2015, at 1:40 PM, SuStel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">On 12/4/2015 1:25 =
PM, Will Martin wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">HoDpu'=92e=92 nIv Qanqor.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It =
basically means, =93Krankor is superior (while you think about<br =
class=3D"">captains).=94 So, you might translate that is =93Krankor is =
superior among<br class=3D"">captains.=94 Okrand explains this as a =
=93topicalizer=94, suggesting that you<br class=3D"">are presenting the =
topic of the sentence, but given some of the canon<br class=3D"">examples,=
there are those here who strongly believe that he picked the<br =
class=3D"">wrong word, even though he apparently picked the RIGHT word =
when he<br class=3D"">picked =93perfective=94 for {-pu=92}, even as his =
description of {-pu=92} didn=92t<br class=3D"">really convey what =
perfective apparently means.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">It's not the same thing. {-'e'} is described in TKD as a =
topicalizer, marking the topic of the sentence. The examples of its use =
in TKD that claim it's a topicalizer shows its use as emphasis, which is =
a different thing. TKD does not, I think, have a true example of {-'e'} =
as topic, though we have at least one in canon.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Meanwhile, {-pu'} is explained correctly by Okrand, but =
simplistically. "An action is completed" is what TKD says, and it is =
what perfective means. For years we tried to add the idea of "... before =
the time context," which does not appear in TKD, and which does not =
describe the perfective.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">By the way, =
qunnoQ, using {-'e'} to mark to head noun of a relative clause is =
optional. Do it if you want to clarify whether the head noun is the =
subject or object of the relative clause.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Here's a canonical example of a relative clause without the =
optional {-'e'}:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> Hov =
ghajbe'bogh ram rur pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj<br class=3D""> a =
day without secrets is like a night without stars<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">If you wanted to use the optional {-'e'} on both relative =
clauses, it would look like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
Hov ghajbe'bogh ram'e' rur pegh ghajbe'bogh jaj'e'<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Sometimes it is not important to disambiguate. =
Sometimes it is helpful not to. I once write a song called {yIH ghupbogh =
be' qan} and I liked the ambiguity: is it "the old woman who swallowed a =
tribble" or is it "the tribble which the old woman swallowed"? Does it =
matter?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(If I were writing it today, I'd =
have said {yIH ghuppu'bogh be' qan}.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br =
class=3D"">SuStel<br class=3D""><a href=3D"http://www.trimboli.name/" =
class=3D"">http://www.trimboli.name/</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br=
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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