[102868] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Fri Dec 4 12:23:09 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 12:22:51 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2c+2AD23tE=+4T8CUsw8J7ZGpDaHotVTS2__FhALWNUMUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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There=E2=80=99s a fairly advanced grammatical point that you likely are =
not experienced enough to understand here. Allow me to help. It=E2=80=99s =
the last thing in this brief exchange. See my attempt at help below =
that.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 11:40 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> ...
>> tlhIngan Hol Dalo'taHvIS, Dochmey'e' bopbogh mu'meylIj vuSbe'lu'.
> <while you are using tlhIngan Hol, someone is not limited,your
> words,things which are concerned>
> ...
The sentence you are struggling with has a =E2=80=9Crelative clause=E2=80=9D=
in it. That=E2=80=99s fairly advanced, and that clause has both a =
subject and an object, making it a step more complex, and one of the =
nouns is marked with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, which is not explained in =
TKD because Okrand had not developed that technique yet for using =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} for that purpose at that stage of history of the =
language. So, your ignorance is quite forgivable.
In Klingon, a verb with {-bogh} creates a relative clause. That means =
it=E2=80=99s like a little sentence that tells you something about one =
of the nouns in that little sentence that is also shared with the larger =
sentence. In English, we use relative pronouns, instead.
So, when I say, =E2=80=9CThe guard, who is large, hit me,=E2=80=9D the =
relative clause is =E2=80=9Cwho is large=E2=80=9D. The larger sentence =
is =E2=80=9CThe guard hit me.=E2=80=9D In English, the relative pronoun =
=E2=80=9Cwho=E2=80=9D is standing in for =E2=80=9Cthe guard=E2=80=9D, =
which is part of the larger sentence.
In Klingon, there are no relative pronouns. Instead, that one noun =
participates in both the main clause and the relative clause:
muqIp tInbogh =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99.
So, {=E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99} is the subject of {tInbogh} and he is also =
the subject of {muqIp}. You could think of it as {muqIp (tInbogh =
=E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99)}.
That=E2=80=99s strange enough to require some getting used to, but it =
gets weirder still if we say, =E2=80=9CThe guard, whom the officer had =
hit, hit me.=E2=80=9D
{muqIp =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99 qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS}
For one thing, we can=E2=80=99t really tell if this means =E2=80=9CThe =
guard whom the officer had hit hit me,=E2=80=9D or if it means =E2=80=9CTh=
e officer who had hit the guard hit me.=E2=80=9D Either interpretation =
is grammatically valid.
So, we mark the noun that participates in both the relative clause AND =
the main clause with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} because it is, in essence, =
the topic of the relative clause =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s the important =
noun that ties the two clauses together.
{muqIp =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qIppu=E2=80=99bogh =
yaS}.
Now, we know the guard hit me, not the officer. Or if it had the other =
meaning, we=E2=80=99d say:
{muqIp =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99 qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99}.
So, going back to the example you stumbled over:
tlhIngan Hol Dalo=E2=80=99taHvIS Dochmey=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 bopbogh =
mu=E2=80=99meylIj vuSbe=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99.
You got a lot of this right, but keep in mind that {Dochmey bopbogh =
mu=E2=80=99meylIj} is the original relative clause with the confusing =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} stripped out of it, because for the meaning of =
that clause alone, you don=E2=80=99t need {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. The =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is added so you can tell whether it is your words =
that are not limited or the things which your words are concerned about =
that are not limited.
Does it make more sense now?
> qun HoD
>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s a fairly advanced grammatical point that you =
likely are not experienced enough to understand here. Allow me to help. =
It=E2=80=99s the last thing in this brief exchange. See my attempt at =
help below that.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 4, 2015, at 11:40 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#00afcd" class=3D"">...</font><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">tlhIngan Hol Dalo'taHvIS, Dochmey'e' bopbogh =
mu'meylIj vuSbe'lu'.<br class=3D""></blockquote><while you are using =
tlhIngan Hol, someone is not limited,your<br class=3D"">words,things =
which are concerned><br class=3D""><font color=3D"#00afcd" =
class=3D"">...</font></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The=
sentence you are struggling with has a =E2=80=9Crelative clause=E2=80=9D =
in it. That=E2=80=99s fairly advanced, and that clause has both a =
subject and an object, making it a step more complex, and one of the =
nouns is marked with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, which is not explained in =
TKD because Okrand had not developed that technique yet for using =
{-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} for that purpose at that stage of history of the =
language. So, your ignorance is quite forgivable.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In Klingon, a verb with {-bogh} creates a relative =
clause. That means it=E2=80=99s like a little sentence that tells you =
something about one of the nouns in that little sentence that is also =
shared with the larger sentence. In English, we use relative pronouns, =
instead.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, when I say, =E2=80=9CThe =
guard, who is large, hit me,=E2=80=9D the relative clause is =E2=80=9Cwho =
is large=E2=80=9D. The larger sentence is =E2=80=9CThe guard hit me.=E2=80=
=9D In English, the relative pronoun =E2=80=9Cwho=E2=80=9D is standing =
in for =E2=80=9Cthe guard=E2=80=9D, which is part of the larger =
sentence.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In Klingon, there are no =
relative pronouns. Instead, that one noun participates in both the main =
clause and the relative clause:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>muqIp =
tInbogh =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, =
{=E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99} is the subject of {tInbogh} and he is also the =
subject of {muqIp}. You could think of it as {muqIp (tInbogh =
=E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99)}.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99=
s strange enough to require some getting used to, but it gets weirder =
still if we say, =E2=80=9CThe guard, whom the officer had hit, hit =
me.=E2=80=9D</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>{muqIp =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=
=99 qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS}</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For one =
thing, we can=E2=80=99t really tell if this means =E2=80=9CThe guard =
whom the officer had hit hit me,=E2=80=9D or if it means =E2=80=9CThe =
officer who had hit the guard hit me.=E2=80=9D Either interpretation is =
grammatically valid.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, we mark the =
noun that participates in both the relative clause AND the main clause =
with {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} because it is, in essence, the topic of the =
relative clause =E2=80=94 it=E2=80=99s the important noun that ties the =
two clauses together.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>{muqIp =
=E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 qIppu=E2=80=99bogh =
yaS}.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Now, we know the guard hit me, =
not the officer. Or if it had the other meaning, we=E2=80=99d =
say:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>{muqIp =E2=80=98avwI=E2=80=99 =
qIppu=E2=80=99bogh yaS=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99}.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>So, going back to the example you stumbled =
over:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>tlhIngan Hol Dalo=E2=80=99taHvIS=
Dochmey=E2=80=99e=E2=80=99 bopbogh mu=E2=80=99meylIj =
vuSbe=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You got a =
lot of this right, but keep in mind that {Dochmey bopbogh mu=E2=80=99meylI=
j} is the original relative clause with the confusing {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99=
} stripped out of it, because for the meaning of that clause alone, you =
don=E2=80=99t need {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}. The {-=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} is =
added so you can tell whether it is your words that are not limited or =
the things which your words are concerned about that are not =
limited.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Does it make more sense =
now?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">qun HoD<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
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