[102835] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qov@kli.org)
Fri Dec 4 00:38:53 2015
From: <qov@kli.org>
To: "'tlhIngan Hol mailing list'" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cK3wM4e_Nxw51ZG2F6YQQ4+XNEVmUJVbmoUN8ERHKyLnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 21:38:35 -0800
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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qaStaHvIS jar wa=E2=80=99maH wa=E2=80=99 jabbI=E2=80=99IDvam vIper. =
=E2=80=98elaDya=E2=80=99 Hol vIjatlhbe=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98ach potlh qech =
tu=E2=80=99bogh qunnoQ HoD: Hol wa=E2=80=99DIchvaD HoSlaH =
mu=E2=80=99tlhegh, Hol cha=E2=80=99DIchvaD pujtaHvIS. =
Duy=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99 Hol cha=E2=80=99DIch. pIm neH. =
paQDI=E2=80=99norghvam yIghojqu=E2=80=99.
=20
translation:
I tagged this e-mail in November. I don=E2=80=99t speak Greek, but =
qunnoQ HoD=E2=80=99s observation is important: a phrase can be powerful =
in one language, while it is weak in another. The second language is not =
defective, merely different. Learn this lesson well.
=20
- Qov
=20
From: qunnoQ HoD [mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com]=20
Sent: November 11, 2015 9:07
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
=20
A moment of clarity
I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of =
the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as =
myself. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced =
klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to =
digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following =
happened.
earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonidas' =
response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arms ; =
i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them" =
which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in =
klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure =
out the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon =
the "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* =
right.
but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things =
clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my =
way in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything =
became clearer.
but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is =
"molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't =
know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this =
is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times =
myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face =
when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..=20
but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak =
today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which =
in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the =
original phrase did.=20
..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all =
kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that =
modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) =
feeling of the original phrase.
thinking all this,i asked myself..
does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon =
lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate =
in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that =
klingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able =
to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any =
other language has to say. things don't work that way.
anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its =
beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible =
inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of =
"deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact =
that languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be =
different,the same way that individual people are always different =
compared to each other.
maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo =
in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read =
him in the original klingon.."
be that as it may..
SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
cpt qunnoQ
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>qaStaHvIS jar wa=E2=80=99maH wa=E2=80=99 jabbI=E2=80=99IDvam vIper. =
=C2=A0=E2=80=98elaDya=E2=80=99 Hol vIjatlhbe=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98ach =
potlh qech tu=E2=80=99bogh qunnoQ HoD: Hol wa=E2=80=99DIchvaD HoSlaH =
mu=E2=80=99tlhegh, Hol cha=E2=80=99DIchvaD pujtaHvIS. =
Duy=E2=80=99be=E2=80=99 Hol cha=E2=80=99DIch. pIm neH. =
paQDI=E2=80=99norghvam yIghojqu=E2=80=99.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>translation:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I tagged this e-mail in November. I don=E2=80=99t speak Greek, but =
qunnoQ HoD=E2=80=99s observation is important: a phrase can be powerful =
in one language, while it is weak in another. The second language is not =
defective, merely different. Learn this lesson =
well.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>- Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> qunnoQ HoD =
[mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> November 11, 2015 =
9:07<br><b>To:</b> tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>A moment of clarity<br><br>I just =
realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of the =
list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself. =
This concerns something,which is well known to experienced =
klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to =
digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following =
happened.<br><br>earlier today i was wondering how to translate in =
klingon king leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him =
to surrender his arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the =
"come and get them" which i believe more or less almost =
everyone has heard of.<br><br>but as i was trying to figure out how to =
say this phrase in klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that =
I couldn't figure out the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't =
convey in klingon the "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what =
i did,it just didn't *feel* right.<br><br>but then it hit me ! and the =
realization which followed,made things clearer in a most spectacular =
way. It was as if i was trying to find my way in a dark room,until =
suddenly the lights went on and everything became clearer.<br><br>but =
first let me write some details,which are essential to this =
post.<br><br>the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian =
messenger,is "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek =
person,even one who doesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the =
"molon lave" will *feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as =
it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i have wondered about =
the look on the persian's messenger face when he heard it. let alone the =
look on the xerxes face.. <br><br>but if one tries to translate this =
phrase in the greek people speak today,the "molon lave" will =
degrade to a mere "come and get them" which in no way does it =
retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the original phrase =
did. <br><br>..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried =
to find all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no =
way that modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an =
understatement) feeling of the original phrase.<br><br>thinking all =
this,i asked myself..<br><br>does the fact that modern greek fail to =
express the feeling of "molon lave",mean that modern greek are =
deficient ? and if i cannot translate in current greek such a simple =
phrase,then why should i demand that klingon would be in a position of =
expressing this phrase's feeling ?<br><br>finally i realized,that one =
cannot expect any given language to be able to translate and express =
everything,and in the exact same way that any other language has to say. =
things don't work that way.<br><br>anything written originally in a =
language (real or constructed) has its beauty expressed in exactly that =
original language. any possible inability to convey the same beauty in =
another language is not a sign of "deficiency" ; it is rather =
a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages are meant to be =
diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that individual =
people are always different compared to each other.<br><br>maybe this is =
the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo in our minds =
"..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read him in =
the original klingon.."<br><br>be that as it =
may..<br><br>SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br>ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq =
!<br><br>cpt qunnoQ<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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