[102778] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Thu Dec 3 00:06:40 2015
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:06:23 +1000
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKH5w=-aAC=NsoiCPSPuec=SErS1SK=CSLvViswy=SiQw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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jatlhpu' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv=2C jatlh:
> Kahless the Unforgettable never asked ANYBODY to turn the other cheek.
teHbej! jatlhlu' net Sov=2C {DabuQlu'DI' yISuv}... {DabuQlu'DI' yIjegh} not=
jatlhrup tlhIngan net Sovchu'.
taH:
> Someone writing in asking for us to translate a lot of Christian terms th=
at
> don=92t exist in the language and likely have no parallel in the culture =
intended
> as a tool to help a beginner know how to translate something they want to
> translate is probably barking up the wrong tree.
wa' DoS wIqIp. 'ach qechmeyvetlh mughmeH mu'mey'e' DInobta' je 'op maH. maj=
angpu' jIH latlh jatlhwI'pu' je. taHtaHqu'bogh ja'chuqtaHghach vIyajbe' 'e'=
vIchIDqangbej.
=20
jang qunnoQ=2C jatlh:
> It is not *what* a beginner should translate. It is rather *why* he wants=
to
> translate and *how* he proceeds doing it.
'ach=2C qunnoQ=2C laHDaj noHnISchu' taghwI'vetlh (Hoch jatlhwI'pu' je) 'ej =
laHDajvaD bo'Dagh'a' lo'be'nIS. ghItlh mughmeH 'utbogh laH nIv law' jatlhwI=
' laH nIv puS 'e' tu'DI' vay'=2C DoSDaj choH chaq 'e' qelnIS. vay'vaD tlhoy=
Qatlhba'chugh Qu'=2C chay' chavlaH? 'ej chay' tIvlaH nIDtaHvIS? Qu'Daj Qat=
lhqu'moH mogh'eghmoHwI'.
With that said=2C qunnoQ=2C the beginner (well=2C all speakers=2C really) s=
hould also be able to judge their own abilities without exaggerating them. =
If one finds out that the ability required to engage in a translation is be=
yond them=2C then perhaps they should consider shifting their target. If a =
task is clearly too difficult for someone=2C how will they achieve it? And =
more importantly=2C how will they be able to enjoy it while they do? Someon=
e who gets themselves frustrated makes their task very hard.
taH:
> So he chooses passages that an average human being would understand=2C
> and he tries applying what he has learned.
vaj yIruch. ghu'vammo' maQochbe' jIH lojmIt tI'wI' nuv je: vuDmeymajvo' pIn=
obpu'pu'bogh Sov Dalo'choHlaw'Qo'. DaH qechmeyvetlh tIlo'choH. vay' yImugh.=
yImughvIpQo'. pIQaH 'e' yIchaw'choH. meq law'mo' ratlhtaH tetlh qanwI'pu'H=
ey=3B taghwI'pu' QaHqangtaHghach 'oH wa' meq'e'.
Go for it. lojmIt tI'wI' nuv and I agree on this point: with all respect=2C=
you don't seem to be actually putting into action the knowledge gleaned fr=
om the opinions we've given. Don't be afraid to try now to put those ideas =
into action and perhaps translate something using these thoughts. Let us he=
lp you - that's one reason why the senior members=2C as you put it=2C stick=
around on the list.
SuStelvaD jang qunnoQ=2C jatlh:
> And this gives me the opportunity to discuss something you (and almost
> every other senior member here)=2C do not realize. The way you write is
> way too complex for a beginner to understand. You don't realize
> this=2C because you can write fluently and this all seems easy to you. It
> is understandable =3B But no beginner could follow up with your level.
boQ DaHutlhchu'chugh=2C teHbej. 'e' vISovbej. 'ach TKD yIlo'. boQwI' yIlo'.=
mu' HaqwI' yIlo'. boQbogh janHommey law' tu'lu'. bIH tIlo'. 'ej Qu'lIj Dan=
apmoHlaHbej=3B mu'tlhegh yIghor. Hoch mu''e' nIteb yIpoj. mu' 'ay'mey tIgho=
v: moHaq=2C mojaqmey je. qech 'oSbogh mu' yIloy. ghIq mu'mey tIrar=2C 'ej q=
ech 'oSbogh mu'tlhegh yIloy. nI'law' 'ej Dallaw' mIwvetlh 'e' vISovchu'=2C =
'ach tugh ngeDchoH 'ej ngeDqu'choH. SIbI'Ha'=2C nom DachavlaH. tagha' mIw D=
aQubnISbe'qu'choH. qaSchoH neH. SoHvaD 'Iqqu'law' ghItlhmajmu'mey=2C QInmaj=
mu'mey je 'e' vISIv. vIyajlaHqu'. 'ach rap mIw: Hoch mu''e'=2C Hoch mu'tlh=
egh'e'=2C nIteb tIpoj.
For my part I do realise that you wouldn't be able to do so unaided. But th=
at's what TKD is for. That's why there are apps like boQwI'=2C and mu' Haqw=
I' that you can use. The grammar is=2C with extremely few exceptions=2C all=
laid out in TKD. And you can make your task simpler: break up the sentence=
=2C analyse each word alone=2C recognise its parts=2C prefixes and suffixes=
. Then try to work out what the individual words mean. Then try to put thos=
e together and work out what all those words mean together. It sounds a lon=
g and arduous process=2C I know=2C but eventually it will get easier and ea=
sier. Later you'll be able to do it very quickly. Soon you won't need to th=
ink about the process at all. It will just happen. I wonder if you're simpl=
y daunted by the volume of text. That's fair enough=2C but it's the same as=
any other text: one word=2C one phrase=2C one sentence at a time.
taH:
> So=2Cyou cannot expect someone to be able to keep up with you=2Cconversin=
g
> freely so that then=2Cand only then he will be "deemed worthy" to start
> translating anything.
pItuch wIneHbe'chu'. Hol voDleH maHbe'ba'. 'ach yIqel: ghItlh'a'mey Qatlh D=
amughlaH 'e' DaQub'a' SoH'e'? ghu'vetlhmo' ghItlh nap DamughmeH pItungHa'mo=
H 'e' wInID. ghItlh DamughchoHDI'=2C mIw wa'DIch Data'=2C 'ach Hol Dalo'laH=
DI'=2C mIw paghDIch Data'.
Nobody wants to forbid you anything. We're not the emperors of the language=
. But put it this way: do *you* think you'd be up to translating a complex =
text? That's why we're trying to encourage you to start small=2C with the b=
uilding blocks. As it might be said in Klingon=2C starting the translation =
is the first step=2C but being able to use the language is the step before =
that.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuvvaD jang je qunnoQ=2C jatlh:
> b. that "someone" asked for the opinion of other members here=2Con a
> subject which as you said=2Chas been translated by one of the most
> fluent speakers ever.
> c. that "someone" wrote that he doesn't intend to translate the bible
vabDot Bible 'ay'Hommey Damugh DaneHchugh=2C qay'be'qu'. yIruch. 'ach wej y=
apchugh laHlIj=2C yapbe' 'e' yItemQo'. (vIjatlhDI' qatIchbe'qu'=3B taghwI' =
jIHpu' je jIH'e'. jIHvaD rapqu' je mIw.)
Even if you want to translate Bible sections=2C no problem at all. But if y=
our abilities are not enough it's not going to help you to deny that fact. =
(And when I say so I'm not trying to insult=3B I was a beginner once myself=
. The process was just like this for me too.)
> d. that "someone" will not ask for your permission=2Cin order to
> translate anything he chooses
'utbe'qu'. vay' Damugh DaneHchugh=2C yIruch. vaj bIqeqlaH 'ej laHlIj DaDubl=
aH.
Of course. If you want to translate something=2C do go ahead. That way you =
can practise and improve your abilities.
> f. don't speak of Jesus in vain =3B you don't have the right to insult
> other people's beliefs.
cha'logh jIjang vIneH=2C 'ach DIvI' Hol vIlo'be'choH=2C tlhIngan Hol bopbog=
h qoj yughbogh ghItlh'e' DaH vIqonbe'lI'mo'.
wa'DIch: Jesus tIchpu' 'e' Hechbe' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'e' vIHon. pIm neH Jes=
us qeylIS je 'e' jatlh 'ej Bible ghItlhmey mughmeH Qu' QatlhmoH ngoDvetlh '=
e' cha'law'. cha'DIch: qechlIj'e' jIQoch jIH. nuvpu' quv'e' lutIchbe'nISlu'=
'e' vIHarbej=3B 'ach qechmey'e' Harbogh nuvpu'=2C vaqnISlaH vay'=2C pojnIS=
laH vay'=2C tobHa'nISlaH vay'. DoS mojnISlaH Hoch qech. ram qech Segh: Qoch=
laHghach tuchlu'DI'=2C Qobqu' ghu'.
SKI: QeS disagrees=2C but refuses to go off-topic to discuss that in Englis=
h.
QeS 'utlh
=
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>jatlhpu' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv=2C ja=
tlh:<br>>=3B Kahless the Unforgettable never asked ANYBODY to turn the ot=
her cheek.<br><br>teHbej! jatlhlu' net Sov=2C {DabuQlu'DI' yISuv}... {DabuQ=
lu'DI' yIjegh} not jatlhrup tlhIngan net Sovchu'.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B Som=
eone writing in asking for us to translate a lot of Christian terms that<br=
>>=3B don=92t exist in the language and likely have no parallel in the cu=
lture intended<br>>=3B as a tool to help a beginner know how to translate=
something they want to<br>>=3B translate is probably barking up the wron=
g tree.<br><br>wa' DoS wIqIp. 'ach qechmeyvetlh mughmeH mu'mey'e' DInobta' =
je 'op maH. majangpu' jIH latlh jatlhwI'pu' je. taHtaHqu'bogh ja'chuqtaHgha=
ch vIyajbe' 'e' vIchIDqangbej.<br> =3B<br><div>jang qunnoQ=2C jatlh:<br=
>>=3B It is not *what* a beginner should translate. It is rather *why* he=
wants to<br>>=3B translate and *how* he proceeds doing it.<br><br>'ach=
=2C qunnoQ=2C laHDaj noHnISchu' taghwI'vetlh (Hoch jatlhwI'pu' je) 'ej laHD=
ajvaD bo'Dagh'a' lo'be'nIS. ghItlh mughmeH 'utbogh laH nIv law' jatlhwI' la=
H nIv puS 'e' tu'DI' vay'=2C DoSDaj choH chaq 'e' qelnIS. vay'vaD tlhoy Qat=
lhba'chugh Qu'=2C chay' chavlaH? 'ej chay' tIvlaH nIDtaHvIS? Qu'Daj Qatlhqu=
'moH mogh'eghmoHwI'.<br>With that said=2C qunnoQ=2C the beginner (well=2C a=
ll speakers=2C really) should also be able to judge their own abilities wit=
hout exaggerating them. If one finds out that the ability required to engag=
e in a translation is beyond them=2C then perhaps they should consider shif=
ting their target. If a task is clearly too difficult for someone=2C how wi=
ll they achieve it? And more importantly=2C how will they be able to enjoy =
it while they do? Someone who gets themselves frustrated makes their task v=
ery hard.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B So he chooses passages that an average huma=
n being would understand=2C<br>>=3B and he tries applying what he has lea=
rned.<br><br>vaj yIruch. ghu'vammo' maQochbe' jIH lojmIt tI'wI' nuv je: vuD=
meymajvo' pInobpu'pu'bogh Sov Dalo'choHlaw'Qo'. DaH qechmeyvetlh tIlo'choH.=
vay' yImugh. yImughvIpQo'. pIQaH 'e' yIchaw'choH. meq law'mo' ratlhtaH tet=
lh qanwI'pu'Hey=3B taghwI'pu' QaHqangtaHghach 'oH wa' meq'e'.<br>Go for it.=
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv and I agree on this point: with all respect=2C you don't=
seem to be actually putting into action the knowledge gleaned from the opi=
nions we've given. Don't be afraid to try now to put those ideas into actio=
n and perhaps translate something using these thoughts. Let us help you - t=
hat's one reason why the senior members=2C as you put it=2C stick around on=
the list.<br><br>SuStelvaD jang qunnoQ=2C jatlh:<br>>=3B And this gives =
me the opportunity to discuss something you (and almost<br>>=3B every oth=
er senior member here)=2C do not realize. The way you write is<br>>=3B wa=
y too complex for a beginner to understand. You don't realize<br>>=3B thi=
s=2C because you can write fluently and this all seems easy to you. It<br>&=
gt=3B is understandable =3B But no beginner could follow up with your level=
.<br><br>boQ DaHutlhchu'chugh=2C teHbej. 'e' vISovbej. 'ach TKD yIlo'. boQw=
I' yIlo'. mu' HaqwI' yIlo'. boQbogh janHommey law' tu'lu'. bIH tIlo'. 'ej Q=
u'lIj DanapmoHlaHbej=3B mu'tlhegh yIghor. Hoch mu''e' nIteb yIpoj. mu' 'ay'=
mey tIghov: moHaq=2C mojaqmey je. qech 'oSbogh mu' yIloy. ghIq mu'mey tIrar=
=2C 'ej qech 'oSbogh mu'tlhegh yIloy. nI'law' 'ej Dallaw' mIwvetlh 'e' vISo=
vchu'=2C 'ach tugh ngeDchoH 'ej ngeDqu'choH. SIbI'Ha'=2C nom DachavlaH. tag=
ha' mIw DaQubnISbe'qu'choH. qaSchoH neH. SoHvaD 'Iqqu'law' ghItlhmajmu'mey=
=2C QInmaj mu'mey je 'e' vISIv. vIyajlaHqu'. 'ach rap mIw: Hoch mu''e'=2C H=
och mu'tlhegh'e'=2C nIteb tIpoj.<br>For my part I do realise that you would=
n't be able to do so unaided. But that's what TKD is for. That's why there =
are apps like boQwI'=2C and mu' HaqwI' that you can use. The grammar is=2C =
with extremely few exceptions=2C all laid out in TKD. And you can make your=
task simpler: break up the sentence=2C analyse each word alone=2C recognis=
e its parts=2C prefixes and suffixes. Then try to work out what the individ=
ual words mean. Then try to put those together and work out what all those =
words mean together. It sounds a long and arduous process=2C I know=2C but =
eventually it will get easier and easier. Later you'll be able to do it ver=
y quickly. Soon you won't need to think about the process at all. It will j=
ust happen. I wonder if you're simply daunted by the volume of text. That's=
fair enough=2C but it's the same as any other text: one word=2C one phrase=
=2C one sentence at a time.<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B So=2Cyou cannot expect so=
meone to be able to keep up with you=2Cconversing<br>>=3B freely so that =
then=2Cand only then he will be "deemed worthy" to start<br>>=3B translat=
ing anything.<br><br>pItuch wIneHbe'chu'. Hol voDleH maHbe'ba'. 'ach yIqel:=
ghItlh'a'mey Qatlh DamughlaH 'e' DaQub'a' SoH'e'? ghu'vetlhmo' ghItlh nap =
DamughmeH pItungHa'moH 'e' wInID. ghItlh DamughchoHDI'=2C mIw wa'DIch Data'=
=2C 'ach Hol Dalo'laHDI'=2C mIw paghDIch Data'.<br>Nobody wants to forbid y=
ou anything. We're not the emperors of the language. But put it this way: d=
o *you* think you'd be up to translating a complex text? That's why we're t=
rying to encourage you to start small=2C with the building blocks. As it mi=
ght be said in Klingon=2C starting the translation is the first step=2C but=
being able to use the language is the step before that.<br><br>lojmIt tI'w=
I' nuvvaD jang je qunnoQ=2C jatlh:<br>>=3B b. that "someone" asked for th=
e opinion of other members here=2Con a<br>>=3B subject which as you said=
=2Chas been translated by one of the most<br>>=3B fluent speakers ever.<b=
r>>=3B c. that "someone" wrote that he doesn't intend to translate the bi=
ble<br><br>vabDot Bible 'ay'Hommey Damugh DaneHchugh=2C qay'be'qu'. yIruch.=
'ach wej yapchugh laHlIj=2C yapbe' 'e' yItemQo'. (vIjatlhDI' qatIchbe'qu'=
=3B taghwI' jIHpu' je jIH'e'. jIHvaD rapqu' je mIw.)<br>Even if you want to=
translate Bible sections=2C no problem at all. But if your abilities are n=
ot enough it's not going to help you to deny that fact. (And when I say so =
I'm not trying to insult=3B I was a beginner once myself. The process was j=
ust like this for me too.)<br><br>>=3B d. that "someone" will not ask for=
your permission=2Cin order to<br>>=3B translate anything he chooses<br><=
br>'utbe'qu'. vay' Damugh DaneHchugh=2C yIruch. vaj bIqeqlaH 'ej laHlIj DaD=
ublaH.<br>Of course. If you want to translate something=2C do go ahead. Tha=
t way you can practise and improve your abilities.<br><br>>=3B f. don't s=
peak of Jesus in vain =3B you don't have the right to insult<br>>=3B othe=
r people's beliefs.<br><br>cha'logh jIjang vIneH=2C 'ach DIvI' Hol vIlo'be'=
choH=2C tlhIngan Hol bopbogh qoj yughbogh ghItlh'e' DaH vIqonbe'lI'mo'.<br>=
<br>wa'DIch: Jesus tIchpu' 'e' Hechbe' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'e' vIHon. pIm neH=
Jesus qeylIS je 'e' jatlh 'ej Bible ghItlhmey mughmeH Qu' QatlhmoH ngoDvet=
lh 'e' cha'law'. cha'DIch: qechlIj'e' jIQoch jIH. nuvpu' quv'e' lutIchbe'nI=
Slu' 'e' vIHarbej=3B 'ach qechmey'e' Harbogh nuvpu'=2C vaqnISlaH vay'=2C po=
jnISlaH vay'=2C tobHa'nISlaH vay'. DoS mojnISlaH Hoch qech. ram qech Segh: =
QochlaHghach tuchlu'DI'=2C Qobqu' ghu'.<br><br>SKI: QeS disagrees=2C but re=
fuses to go off-topic to discuss that in English.<br><br>QeS 'utlh<br></div=
> </div></body>
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