[102702] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Dec 1 09:35:16 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <4753053.37780.1448978152130.JavaMail.defaultUser@defaultHost>
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:35:01 -0500
To: tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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As an honest atheist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=80=9D is an alien word =
to me, and it=E2=80=99s notable that it=E2=80=99s an English word and =
I=E2=80=99m a native English speaker. So, how are you going to translate =
that into Klingon if you can=E2=80=99t really explain it to me in =
English?
I really think you might as well try to translate the term =
=E2=80=9Creplicator=E2=80=9D in the Star Trek universe into D=E2=80=99nai,=
a language of a fictional race that doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in =
their universe. Or maybe translate the term =E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D =
to a language that belongs to a culture that has no religion and no =
concept of =E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and doesn=E2=80=99t intake any =
substance that doesn=E2=80=99t require chewing. It=E2=80=99s like trying =
to come up with vocabulary for discussing the engineering concepts =
behind support bras that =E2=80=9Clift and separate=E2=80=9D to a =
culture of intelligent fungus who have no concept of engineering and =
have no experience with breasts to be lifted or separated, and no idea =
why anyone would want them lifted or separated.
Or maybe take on the role of mattress salesman, trying to explain to a =
Klingon the advantages of memory foam, ignoring the simple fact that =
Klingons prefer to sleep on hard, cold surfaces.
There are so many other things to talk about in the language for which =
the language is well equipped. I really think you are starting off in a =
direction for which you are poorly equipped, if this language is your =
tool. You=E2=80=99d have to be exceptionally well skilled; more skilled =
than I am, and I=E2=80=99ve been using this language since qep=E2=80=99a=E2=
=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch.
I suggest that you build your skill in the language taking on less =
challenging topics of translation, and then, years from now, once you =
have grown strong and confident in your ability to translate simpler =
things, perhaps return to your quest to translate religious texts into =
Klingon. Otherwise, you will be overly dependent upon the kindness of =
strangers to do most of your work for you.
There have been two attempts, to my knowledge, at bible translation into =
Klingon. One was slapdash, working from an English version of the bible, =
satisfying the author and not really anybody else, and the other, a more =
scholarly, academic attempt working from original language texts that =
was never finished. It=E2=80=99s hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s not =
really appropriate for a new student of the language. Unless you want to =
create a second slapdash project that garners very little respect =
because it is so badly done.
I know this sounds sarcastic. It sounds like an anti-religious rant. =
While some of that is true, because I have spent enough years subjected =
to disrespect for my own religious beliefs, resolving that by deciding =
that this stuff is personal and doesn=E2=80=99t really need public =
discussion any more than one=E2=80=99s sex life, at the root of my =
message here is a truth worthy of note:
Religion is not an appropriate topic of translation for unskilled =
beginners trying to learn the language. So, if you really are trying to =
learn the language, you honestly would be better served working on some =
other topic until you already have enough skills to answer the questions =
you now ask others, because there are no short answers. It is not the =
case that someone can answer a few questions, give you some vocabulary, =
and then you can go off and translate the stuff you apparently want to =
translate.
It=E2=80=99s simply not going to work that way. You need another =
approach.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard =
<a.appleyard@btinternet.com> wrote:
>=20
> I understood that a saint was a Christian who in early times did =
something recognized as very holy, not merely "a member of the church, a =
fellow believer or follower".
>=20
> Some saints were the first man who successfully preached Christiuanity =
in an area, e.g. St. Patrick in Ireland, or St.David in Wales.
>=20
> Some saints were martyrs for their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was =
stoned to death.
> ----Original message----
> =46rom : nahqun@gmail.com
> Date : 01/12/2015 - 12:09 (GMTST)
> To : tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org
> Subject : Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology
>=20
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com =
<mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I've been trying in vain,to find ways to express the following words
> > in Klingon :
> >
> > bless (v)
> > saint (n)
> > sacred,to be sacred
> > holy,to be holy
> >
> > Does anyone have any ideas ?
> >
>=20
> A saint is a member of the church, a fellow believer or follower.
> While I've seen {quvwI'pu'} used here before, and used it myself, you =
may want to consider playing around with
> {chuD} people, kin, member of the same group or tribe or clan
> {tuqnIgh} a member of one's house
> {vInDa'} compatriot, community member, cohort, fellow citizen
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">As an honest atheist, the term =E2=80=9Csaint=E2=
=80=9D is an alien word to me, and it=E2=80=99s notable that it=E2=80=99s =
an English word and I=E2=80=99m a native English speaker. So, how are =
you going to translate that into Klingon if you can=E2=80=99t really =
explain it to me in English?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I really think you might as well try to =
translate the term =E2=80=9Creplicator=E2=80=9D in the Star Trek =
universe into D=E2=80=99nai, a language of a fictional race that =
doesn=E2=80=99t have replicators in their universe. Or maybe translate =
the term =E2=80=9CHoly Grail=E2=80=9D to a language that belongs to a =
culture that has no religion and no concept of =E2=80=9Ccup=E2=80=9D and =
doesn=E2=80=99t intake any substance that doesn=E2=80=99t require =
chewing. It=E2=80=99s like trying to come up with vocabulary for =
discussing the engineering concepts behind support bras that =E2=80=9Clift=
and separate=E2=80=9D to a culture of intelligent fungus who have no =
concept of engineering and have no experience with breasts to be lifted =
or separated, and no idea why anyone would want them lifted or =
separated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Or =
maybe take on the role of mattress salesman, trying to explain to a =
Klingon the advantages of memory foam, ignoring the simple fact that =
Klingons prefer to sleep on hard, cold surfaces.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are so many other things to talk =
about in the language for which the language is well equipped. I really =
think you are starting off in a direction for which you are poorly =
equipped, if this language is your tool. You=E2=80=99d have to be =
exceptionally well skilled; more skilled than I am, and I=E2=80=99ve =
been using this language since qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 =
wa=E2=80=99DIch.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I suggest that you build your skill in the language taking on =
less challenging topics of translation, and then, years from now, once =
you have grown strong and confident in your ability to translate simpler =
things, perhaps return to your quest to translate religious texts into =
Klingon. Otherwise, you will be overly dependent upon the kindness of =
strangers to do most of your work for you.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There have been two attempts, to my =
knowledge, at bible translation into Klingon. One was slapdash, working =
from an English version of the bible, satisfying the author and not =
really anybody else, and the other, a more scholarly, academic attempt =
working from original language texts that was never finished. It=E2=80=99s=
hard. VERY hard. It=E2=80=99s not really appropriate for a new student =
of the language. Unless you want to create a second slapdash project =
that garners very little respect because it is so badly done.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I know this sounds =
sarcastic. It sounds like an anti-religious rant. While some of that is =
true, because I have spent enough years subjected to disrespect for my =
own religious beliefs, resolving that by deciding that this stuff is =
personal and doesn=E2=80=99t really need public discussion any more than =
one=E2=80=99s sex life, at the root of my message here is a truth worthy =
of note:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Religion is not an appropriate topic of translation for =
unskilled beginners trying to learn the language. So, if you really are =
trying to learn the language, you honestly would be better served =
working on some other topic until you already have enough skills to =
answer the questions you now ask others, because there are no short =
answers. It is not the case that someone can answer a few questions, =
give you some vocabulary, and then you can go off and translate the =
stuff you apparently want to translate.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s simply not going to work =
that way. You need another approach.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Dec 1, 2015, at 8:55 AM, Anthony Appleyard <<a =
href=3D"mailto:a.appleyard@btinternet.com" =
class=3D"">a.appleyard@btinternet.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">I understood that a =
saint was a Christian who in early times did something recognized as =
very holy, not merely "a member of the church, a fellow believer or =
follower".<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Some saints were the first man =
who successfully preached Christiuanity in an area, e.g. St. Patrick in =
Ireland, or St.David in Wales.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Some saints =
were martyrs for their faith, e.g. St.Stephen who was stoned to =
death.<br class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-right: 0px; =
margin-left:15px;" class=3D"">----Original message----<br class=3D"">=46ro=
m : <a href=3D"mailto:nahqun@gmail.com" class=3D"">nahqun@gmail.com</a><br=
class=3D"">Date : 01/12/2015 - 12:09 (GMTST)<br class=3D"">To : <a =
href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org" =
class=3D"">tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org</a><br class=3D"">Subject=
: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Religious terminology<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:32 AM, =
qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> I've been trying in vain,to find ways to express the =
following words<br class=3D"">> in Klingon :<br class=3D"">><br =
class=3D"">> bless (v)<br class=3D"">> saint (n)<br class=3D"">> =
sacred,to be sacred<br class=3D"">> holy,to be holy<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D"">> Does anyone have any ideas ?<br =
class=3D"">><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">A saint is a member of the =
church, a fellow believer or follower.<br class=3D"">While I've seen =
{quvwI'pu'} used here before, and used it myself, you may want to =
consider playing around with<br class=3D"">{chuD} people, kin, member of =
the same group or tribe or clan<br class=3D"">{tuqnIgh} a member of =
one's house<br class=3D"">{vInDa'} compatriot, community member, cohort, =
fellow citizen<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div>_________________________________=
______________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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