[102603] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Rohan Fenwick)
Wed Nov 25 12:11:40 2015
From: Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 03:11:25 +1000
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmOZ+=ZgZrD=xnODHbOM92Sp52ogVAKST1+EktgROz5SFw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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jIjatlhpu' jIH:
> This is further supported by S31=2C where we see exactly this kind of
> causative construction:
> Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey
> "[The howl] serves to warn the other dead" (S31)
> The object of {ghuH} is the patient: the thing prepared for (from the glo=
ss
> "prepare for=2C be alerted to"). But the syntactic object in the S31 sent=
ence=2C
> the object of {ghuHmoH}=2C is *not* the patient=2C the thing prepared for=
.
> Instead=2C it's the beneficiary=2C or causee=2C if I can use that term: t=
hose who
> are being alerted. It's what one would have expected in the {-vaD} role i=
f
> one were to base the pattern on the {Ha'quj} sentence from S20.
mujangpu' De'vID=2C jatlh:
> Exactly. Why doesn't it work like in S20?
> {[qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'}
> {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD [tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuHmoH bey}
I believe it doesn't work like in S20 because the role that's normally fill=
ed by the semantic patient of {ghuH} is empty: there's no overt reference h=
ere to what the other dead are being alerted to. (The non-causative would b=
e {ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'} "the other dead are alerted".) Therefore=2C t=
he causee gets to fill the empty Object slot. If there were an underlying p=
atient - that is=2C {tlhIngan SuvwI'} - *it* would appear in the Object pos=
ition=2C and the causee would be relegated to a {-vaD}-marked header.
jIjatlhqa'pu' jIH:
> However=2C this does raise the question of how you express "the commander
> caused (someone unspecified) to hit the warrior". Would it have to be
> periphrastic=2C as {vay'vaD SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'}?
jangqa' De'vID=2C jatlh:
> {SuvwI' qIpmoHlu' ra'wI'} **ducks**
Hee hee :P
taH:
> (btw the only canon example of {-moH} with {-lu'} I recall is
> {chenmoHlu'meH Daq}=2C if you're looking for an example.)
{-moHlu'} is actually kind of embarrassingly well-attested=2C as two-suffix=
combinations go. In addition to the one you give and the KGT examples SuSt=
el cites=2C there's also {HeghqangmoHlu'pu'} "it made him/her willing to di=
e" from TKD (p.45)=2C and a number of other good examples (though unfortuna=
tely=2C without exception they're derived from underlying monovalent verb r=
oots=2C so they can't tell us any more in that regard):
yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'
"this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the Unforgettable" (=
S8)
Heghpu'bogh tlhIngan mInDu' lupoSmoHlu'
"the eyes of the fallen Klingon are opened" (S20)
tuqlIj tuHmoHlu'
"your house will be shamed" (paq'batlh: paq'yav 2.6)
chaH neH wovmoHlu'be'
"not only they were illuminated" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 8.7)
qorDu'wIj quvqa'moHlu'meH
"in order to restore my family honour" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 16.5)
molor tlhabmoHlu'
"Molor's Release" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 24 Title)
veymey puS neH chenmoHlu'pu'
"Limited Edition" (MKE)
boSwI'vaD veyvam le' chenmoHlu'
"Collector's Edition" (MKE)
SuvwI' vaSDaq boquvmoHlu'
"you will be honoured in the Hall of Warriors" (MKE)
QeS 'utlh
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>jIjatlhpu' jIH:<br>>=3B This i=
s further supported by S31=2C where we see exactly this kind of<br>>=3B c=
ausative construction:<br>>=3B Heghpu'bogh latlhpu' ghuHmoH bey<br>>=3B=
"[The howl] serves to warn the other dead" (S31)<br>>=3B The object of {=
ghuH} is the patient: the thing prepared for (from the gloss<br>>=3B "pre=
pare for=2C be alerted to"). But the syntactic object in the S31 sentence=
=2C<br>>=3B the object of {ghuHmoH}=2C is *not* the patient=2C the thing =
prepared for.<br>>=3B Instead=2C it's the beneficiary=2C or causee=2C if =
I can use that term: those who<br>>=3B are being alerted. It's what one w=
ould have expected in the {-vaD} role if<br>>=3B one were to base the pat=
tern on the {Ha'quj} sentence from S20.<br><br>mujangpu' De'vID=2C jatlh:<b=
r>>=3B Exactly. Why doesn't it work like in S20?<br>>=3B {[qen Heghbogh=
tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'}<br>>=3B {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu=
'vaD [tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuHmoH bey}<br><br>I believe it doesn't work like i=
n S20 because the role that's normally filled by the semantic patient of {g=
huH} is empty: there's no overt reference here to what the other dead are b=
eing alerted to. (The non-causative would be {ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'} "t=
he other dead are alerted".) Therefore=2C the causee gets to fill the empty=
Object slot. If there were an underlying patient - that is=2C {tlhIngan Su=
vwI'} - *it* would appear in the Object position=2C and the causee would be=
relegated to a {-vaD}-marked header.<br><br>jIjatlhqa'pu' jIH:<br>>=3B H=
owever=2C this does raise the question of how you express "the commander<br=
>>=3B caused (someone unspecified) to hit the warrior". Would it have to =
be<br>>=3B periphrastic=2C as {vay'vaD SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'}?<br><br>jang=
qa' De'vID=2C jatlh:<br>>=3B {SuvwI' qIpmoHlu' ra'wI'} **ducks**<br><br>H=
ee hee :P<br><br>taH:<br>>=3B (btw the only canon example of {-moH} with =
{-lu'} I recall is<br>>=3B {chenmoHlu'meH Daq}=2C if you're looking for a=
n example.)<br><br>{-moHlu'} is actually kind of embarrassingly well-attest=
ed=2C as two-suffix combinations go. In addition to the one you give and th=
e KGT examples SuStel cites=2C there's also {HeghqangmoHlu'pu'} "it made hi=
m/her willing to die" from TKD (p.45)=2C and a number of other good example=
s (though unfortunately=2C without exception they're derived from underlyin=
g monovalent verb roots=2C so they can't tell us any more in that regard):<=
br><br>yIntaHvIS qeylIS'e' lIjlaHbe'bogh vay' batlh 'etlhvam chenmoHlu'pu'<=
br>"this sword of honor descends from the time of Kahless the Unforgettable=
" (S8)<br><br>Heghpu'bogh tlhIngan mInDu' lupoSmoHlu'<br>"the eyes of the f=
allen Klingon are opened" (S20)<br><br>tuqlIj tuHmoHlu'<br>"your house will=
be shamed" (paq'batlh: paq'yav 2.6)<br><br>chaH neH wovmoHlu'be'<br>"not o=
nly they were illuminated" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 8.7)<br><br>qorDu'wIj quvqa'=
moHlu'meH<br>"in order to restore my family honour" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 16.=
5)<br><br>molor tlhabmoHlu'<br>"Molor's Release" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 24 Tit=
le)<br><br>veymey puS neH chenmoHlu'pu'<br>"Limited Edition" (MKE)<br><br>b=
oSwI'vaD veyvam le' chenmoHlu'<br>"Collector's Edition" (MKE)<br><br>SuvwI'=
vaSDaq boquvmoHlu'<br>"you will be honoured in the Hall of Warriors" (MKE)=
<br><br>QeS 'utlh<br> </div></body>
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