[102563] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Holt)
Mon Nov 23 21:21:03 2015
From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 02:20:35 +0000
In-Reply-To: <D715A32C-B544-4C7C-B0C0-B1B8720C42AB@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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ghItlh lojmIt tI'wI'nuv:
> It might help me if you explain how stative verbs ("be verbs)"
> behave differently when {-moH} is added.
And thinking about it further I realize that I had not created a place in m=
y categorization for "intransitive verbs". Contrary to how I explained it =
earlier, I do not think it is stative verbs, but rather all verbs which can=
be used without an object. In any case, here are the two rules as they si=
t in my mind:
1. When a verb has no object and you add {-moH}, the subject of the root be=
comes the object of the {-moH} verb.
2. When a verb has an object and you add {-moH}, the object of the root rem=
ains the object and the original subject of the root becomes the indirect o=
bject of the {-moH} verb using {-vaD}. I accept the use of the prefix tric=
k in place of the indirect object using {-vaD}.
This means that {wo'rIv vIghojmoH} is where I cause Worf to learn, but with=
out any specific thing that he is learning, I just teach him. To say, "I t=
each it to Worf," it would have to be, {wo'rIvvaD vIghojmoH.} {HIQoymoH} c=
an mean either, "Make me hear!" or, "Let me hear it!"
I admit that this does not necessarily account for any inconsistencies in c=
anon and I am not trying to argue that it is necessarily correct. You seem=
ed to be asking if anyone had this sort of belief and so I raised my hand t=
o show that one person, at least, did believe this. I have not yet encount=
ered an actual {-moH} verb in use where I was not able to figure it out wit=
h the above assumptions, though I admit it's possible that I have allowed a=
dditional flexibility and ignored the inconsistency of an example that work=
s differently than I have explained above.
I have been following this discussion with interest and would welcome argum=
ents specifically pointing out the weaknesses of this understanding.
> No one has addressed what the difference is between Worf and the
> room, in relation to the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the
> other doesn't.
I don't see it as a difference between the nouns, but rather a difference b=
etween the verbs. Since {tuj} cannot even take an object, little thought n=
eeds to go into figuring out where the object of {tujmoH} plays into the ro=
ot sentence. Since {ghoj} can take an object, but doesn't have to, a full =
analysis is a little more complicated (but still pretty straightforward onc=
e you get used to it, like most of the grammar). If Worf is presented as a=
n indirect object then there must be an object whether stated or not and th=
ere is no confusion where Worf's place was in the root sentence. If Worf i=
s not marked as the indirect object, then he must be the object and if the =
prefix doesn't match, then it must indicate the indirect object. Still all=
owing us to figure out where each goes in the root sentence.
janSIy
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<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
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<p style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
ghItlh <span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:16px; orphans:2=
; widows:2">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv:</span></p>
<br>
<div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">> It might help me if you explain how sta=
tive verbs (“be verbs)”</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">> behave differently when {-moH} is added=
.</span><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">And thinking about it further I realize that=
I had not created a place in my categorization for "intransitive verb=
s". Contrary to how I explained it earlier, I do not think it is=
stative verbs, but rather all verbs which can be
used without an object. In any case, here are the two rules as they =
sit in my mind:</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">1. When a verb has no object and y=
ou add {-moH}, the subject of the root becomes the object of the {-moH} ver=
b.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">2. When a verb has an object and you ad=
d {-moH}, the object of the root remains the object and the original s=
ubject of the root becomes the indirect object of the {-moH} verb using {-v=
aD}. I accept the use of the prefix trick in
place of the indirect object using {-vaD}.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt">This means that {wo'rIv vIghojmoH} is where =
I cause Worf to learn, but without any specific thing that he is learning, =
I just teach him. To say, "I teach it to Worf," it would ha=
ve to be, {wo'rIvvaD vIghojmoH.} {HIQoymoH} can
mean either, "Make me hear!" or, "Let me hear it!"</sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"></span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span style=3D"font-size:12pt"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">I admit that this does not necessarily account for any inco=
nsistencies in canon and I am not trying to argue that it is necessarily co=
rrect. You seemed to be asking if anyone
had this sort of belief and so I raised my hand to show that one person, a=
t least, did believe this. I have not yet encountered an actual {-moH=
} verb in use where I was not able to figure it out with the abov=
e assumptions, though I admit it's possible that
I have allowed additional </span>flexibility<span style=3D"font-size:=
12pt;"> and ignored the </span>inconsistency<span style=3D"font-=
size: 12pt;"> of </span><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">an examp=
le that works differently than I have explained above.</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 12pt;">I have been following this discussion with interest and wou=
ld welcome arguments </span>specifically<span style=3D"font-size: 12pt=
;"> pointing out the weaknesses of this understanding.</span></font></=
div>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">> No one has addressed =
what the difference is between Worf and the</span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">> room, in relation to =
the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the</span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">> other doesn’t.<=
/span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">I don't see it as a differ=
ence between the nouns, but rather a difference between the verbs. Si=
nce {tuj} cannot even take an object, little thought needs to go into figur=
ing out where the object of {tujmoH} plays
into the root sentence. Since {ghoj} can take an object, but doesn't=
have to, a full analysis is a little more complicated (but still pretty st=
raightforward once you get used to it, like most of the grammar). If =
Worf is presented as an indirect object then
there must be an object whether stated or not and there is no confusi=
on where Worf's place was in the root sentence. If Worf is not marked=
as the indirect object, then he must be the object and if the prefix doesn=
't match, then it must indicate the indirect
object. Still allowing us to figure out where each goes in the root =
sentence.</span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></div>
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">janSIy</span></div>
</div>
</div>
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