[102551] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Mon Nov 23 14:39:21 2015
In-Reply-To: <D715A32C-B544-4C7C-B0C0-B1B8720C42AB@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 20:39:03 +0100
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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If I may jump into the heated debate... I've been following this discussion
the whole time, and I think it actually is you, lojmIt tI'wI'nuv, who is
trying to bend the rules and come up with grammar that is not supported by
canon. You draw very unlikely conclusions from one or two canonical
sentences and apply your theory to types of sentences for which we already
have canon examples, that already contradict your theory. I'll explain what
I mean...
{-moH} is a causative suffix which increases the valency of the verb by +1,
i.e. an intransitive verb like 'to sleep' (including stative verbs like 'to
be hot') becomes transitive, a transitive verb like 'to learn' becomes
ditransitive. Nothing new here. The new argument introduced, the causer, is
always the new subject. We all agree on that. The former subject is demoted
to the status of a direct object. That is why we have:
{tul pa'.} =3D 'The room is hot.'
{pa' tulmoH qul.} =3D 'The fire heats up the room.'
This simple rule is so basic that no one would have doubts about it. It
doesn't even present difficulties to beginners. And it's backed up by
dozens of examples from canon, e.g.:
{tIjwI'ghom vIchenmoH.} =3D 'I form a boarding party.'
{Duj ronmoH 'owI'.} =3D 'The pilot banks the vessel.'
{yIngaQmoH!} =3D 'Secure him!'
{Hoch qImmoH mu'meyDaj [...]} =3D 'All were bemused by his words [...]'
The third example, {ngaQ}, is not just intransitive, like the others, but
also stative, it's one of those adjective-like be-verbs. We have no example
in cannon that shows that the new object, the causee, of a causativized
stative verb (or intransitive verb) is marked by {-vaD}. None.
When causativizing a transitive verb, the causer becomes the subject. Now,
it's reasonable to assume that all the former agents get demoted, because
that is what happens in many Terran languages. The old direct object would
then become an indirect object or part of a prepositional phrase, while the
old subject becomes the new direct object: Worf remembers his heritage.
---> The sash reminds Worf of his heritage. Right? Well, in English yes.
But we know that Klingon isn't a Terran language. And probably not even in
all Terran languages causatives or case hierarchies work the same. So here
it's different: The causer is the new subject, the former subject becomes
the indirect object marked with {-vaD}, the former object remains the
direct object. Here are the sentences again, the first one isn't cannon but
we know it's right:
{quHDaj qaw ghaH.} =3D 'He remembers his heritage.'
{ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds him of his heritage.'
That's just how it is. What we can do with that sentence, now, is taking
away the arguments. I can remove the indirect object, because it can be
implied, and I can also remove the direct object, because that's possible
in Klingon. We'd simply understand an implied "it" there:
{quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds [someone] of his heritage.'
This someone could as well be Riker or Data. Anyone who upon seeing the
sash thinks: Oh right, yeah, he's Klingon.
{ghaHvaD qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds him [of something].'
Literally, it makes-remember something to him. It's a vague sentence, but
still grammatical. Because of the null-prefix we interprete it as an it.
The sash makes it be remembered to him. The sash reminds him of it.
And there is the prefix-trick, linguistically also known as the dative
shift. So we can form:
{ghaH qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds him.'
I think, so far we've only seen the dative shift work without the former
indirect object being stated explicitly. Things like {paq munob.} 'He gave
me the book.' There is no slot left in this sentence for a {ghaH}, because
it's already taken up by {paq}. We've only seen dative shifts /
prefix-tricks work with indirect objects that were not overtly mentioned,
but implied by the agreement prefix on the verb.
If I'm Worf, then I could say the following three sentences, in which the
role of the prefix shift is clearer:
{jIHvaD quHwIj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds me of my heritage.'
{jIHvaD qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds me [of it].' (null-prefix
meaning 3SG>3SG, here)
{muqawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds me.'
I think there is no counterevidence that suggests that the prefix-trick
couldn't work for overt nouns, right? At least, if there's no other direct
object filling the slot. Hence, I derive:
{wo'rIv qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds Worf.'
Now compare this one to the one where we left out {ghaHvaD}:
{quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds [someone] of his heritage.'
They look the same on the surface, structurally. But actually very
different things have happened. If I could draw syntax trees here, you
could see it. For a moment, take the English ditransitive verb "to teach"
as a parallel. It works the same:
I teach Klingon to you.
I teach Klingon.
I teach to you. >> I teach you.
They're all correct English, aren't they? The "I teach to you." one seems
incomplete and we prefer to apply the dative shift in English.
And I strongly believe that all this above (it's not so complex actually, I
just wanted to spell it all out to make it clear) is the underlying
structure that allows us to say:
{SoHvaD tlhIngan vIghojmoH.}
{tlhIngan vIghojmoH.}
{SoHvaD vIghojmoH.} >> {qaghojmoH.}
So there really is no difference between Worf and the room. The difference
lies in the nature (to be precise: in the valency or transitivity) of the
verb we modify. {tuj} is intransitive and has a valency of 1, so the syntax
is trivial. {ghoj} is transitive and has a valency of 2, so there the issue
of assigning the roles arises. Most Terran languages follow the hierarchy
subject > direct object > indirect object > prepositional phrase, but
Klingon doesn't have to follow these rules. It was designed to be inhuman
(or let's say: un-English).
So, I see no problem here. I acknowledge that it might be a little
confusing, but it's no reason to invent new grammar and suddenly speak of
fires heating up FOR rooms or things like that and claim that canon
predicts such sentences when it does clearly not.
As for {ja'chuq}, that's a different question. I don't have an answer for
that yet. I'll have to think about it more.
- Andr=C3=A9
2015-11-23 19:28 GMT+01:00 Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>:
> It might help me if you explain how stative verbs (=E2=80=9Cbe verbs)=E2=
=80=9D behave
> differently when {-moH} is added.
>
> As I remember it, these were the words we have had the most experience
> with using {-moH}. They set the standard, and initially, when someone
> thought of using it with a verb that can take a direct object, there was
> some confusion, and controversy ever since.
>
> Klingon grammar in most every other area is consistent. When I talk about
> messiness, I=E2=80=99m talking about inconsistency. I=E2=80=99m fine with=
exceptions, but
> exceptions to exceptions to exceptions just gets a little too weird for m=
e.
>
> Worf and the room have the same semantic and syntactic relationship with
> teaching (causing to learn) and heating (causing to be hot) respectively.
> They should have the same grammar applied to them. Okrand has given us no
> reason to expect otherwise.
>
> No one has addressed what the difference is between Worf and the room, in
> relation to the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the other doesn=
=E2=80=99t.
> For that matter, Okrand hasn=E2=80=99t given us a reason that Worf gets {=
-vaD} if
> there=E2=80=99s a direct object, and he doesn=E2=80=99t get it if there i=
sn=E2=80=99t. His semantic
> or syntactic or grammatical role in learning has not changed between the
> two examples.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>
> ghItlh lojmIt tI'wI'nuv:
>
> > And if that=E2=80=99s true for {wo=E2=80=99rIv} in this example, why is=
it not true for
> > {pa=E2=80=99} in {pa=E2=80=99 tujmoH qul}? Since {wo=E2=80=99rIv} is th=
e one who is caused to
> > learn and {pa=E2=80=99} is the thing being caused to be hot, it follows=
that
> > {pa=E2=80=99vaD tujmoH qul} should be the right and proper way to write
> > =E2=80=9CThe fire heats the room.=E2=80=9D The room is the beneficiary =
of the
> > heating as much as Worf is the beneficiary of the teaching. Why do
> > we draw a line here? What is the difference? Nobody has touched
> > this yet, apparently because it is ugly and messy, so those arguing
> > this point just ignore it and try to redirect the problem away from
> > facing the grammatical issue at hand.
>
> I do, indeed, hold to the concept that Klingons note a difference in the
> stative verbs ("be verbs)" and the active verbs and that the stative verb=
s
> work differently with {-moH} than active verbs do. It's not the only
> difference between the types of verbs, so I am comfortable adding this to
> the list of differences.
>
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>If I may jump into the heated debate... I&#=
39;ve been following this discussion the whole time, and I think it actuall=
y is you, lojmIt tI'wI'nuv, who is trying to bend the rules and com=
e up with grammar that is not supported by canon. You draw very unlikely co=
nclusions from one or two canonical sentences and apply your theory to type=
s of sentences for which we already have canon examples, that already contr=
adict your theory. I'll explain what I mean...<br><br></div>{-moH} is a=
causative suffix which increases the valency of the verb by +1, i.e. an in=
transitive verb like 'to sleep' (including stative verbs like '=
to be hot') becomes transitive, a transitive verb like 'to learn=
9; becomes ditransitive. Nothing new here. The new argument introduced, the=
causer, is always the new subject. We all agree on that. The former subjec=
t is demoted to the status of a direct object. That is why we have:<br><br>=
</div>{tul pa'.} =3D 'The room is hot.'<br></div><div>{pa' =
tulmoH qul.} =3D 'The fire heats up the room.'<br><br></div><div>Th=
is simple rule is so basic that no one would have doubts about it. It doesn=
't even present difficulties to beginners. And it's backed up by do=
zens of examples from canon, e.g.:<br><br></div><div>{tIjwI'ghom vIchen=
moH.} =3D 'I form a boarding party.'<br></div><div>{Duj ronmoH '=
;owI'.} =3D 'The pilot banks the vessel.'<br></div><div>{yIngaQ=
moH!} =3D 'Secure him!'<br></div><div>{Hoch qImmoH mu'meyDaj [.=
..]} =3D 'All were bemused by his words [...]'<br><br></div><div>Th=
e third example, {ngaQ}, is not just intransitive, like the others, but als=
o stative, it's one of those adjective-like be-verbs. We have no exampl=
e in cannon that shows that the new object, the causee, of a causativized s=
tative verb (or intransitive verb) is marked by {-vaD}. None.<br><br></div>=
<div>When causativizing a transitive verb, the causer becomes the subject. =
Now, it's reasonable to assume that all the former agents get demoted, =
because that is what happens in many Terran languages. The old direct objec=
t would then become an indirect object or part of a prepositional phrase, w=
hile the old subject becomes the new direct object: Worf remembers his heri=
tage. ---> The sash reminds Worf of his heritage. Right? Well, in Englis=
h yes.<br></div><div>But we know that Klingon isn't a Terran language. =
And probably not even in all Terran languages causatives or case hierarchie=
s work the same. So here it's different: The causer is the new subject,=
the former subject becomes the indirect object marked with {-vaD}, the for=
mer object remains the direct object. Here are the sentences again, the fir=
st one isn't cannon but we know it's right:<br><br></div><div>{quHD=
aj qaw ghaH.} =3D 'He remembers his heritage.'<br></div><div>{ghaHv=
aD quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds him of his heritage=
.'<br><br></div><div>That's just how it is. What we can do with tha=
t sentence, now, is taking away the arguments. I can remove the indirect ob=
ject, because it can be implied, and I can also remove the direct object, b=
ecause that's possible in Klingon. We'd simply understand an implie=
d "it" there:<br><br></div><div>{quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D &=
#39;The sash reminds [someone] of his heritage.'<br></div><div>This som=
eone could as well be Riker or Data. Anyone who upon seeing the sash thinks=
: Oh right, yeah, he's Klingon.<br><br></div><div>{ghaHvaD qawmoH Ha=
9;quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds him [of something].'<br></div><div>Li=
terally, it makes-remember something to him. It's a vague sentence, but=
still grammatical. Because of the null-prefix we interprete it as an it. T=
he sash makes it be remembered to him. The sash reminds him of it.<br><br><=
/div><div>And there is the prefix-trick, linguistically also known as the d=
ative shift. So we can form:<br><br></div><div>{ghaH qawmoH Ha'quj.} =
=3D 'The sash reminds him.'<br></div><div><br>I think, so far we=
9;ve only seen the dative shift work without the former indirect object bei=
ng stated explicitly. Things like {paq munob.} 'He gave me the book.=
9; There is no slot left in this sentence for a {ghaH}, because it's al=
ready taken up by {paq}. We've only seen dative shifts / prefix-tricks =
work with indirect objects that were not overtly mentioned, but implied by =
the agreement prefix on the verb.<br></div><div>If I'm Worf, then I cou=
ld say the following three sentences, in which the role of the prefix shift=
is clearer:<br><br>{jIHvaD quHwIj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash re=
minds me of my heritage.'<br>{jIHvaD qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The s=
ash reminds me [of it].' (null-prefix meaning 3SG>3SG, here)<br></di=
v><div>{muqawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds me.'<br><br></d=
iv><div>I think there is no counterevidence that suggests that the prefix-t=
rick couldn't work for overt nouns, right? At least, if there's no =
other direct object filling the slot. Hence, I derive:<br><br></div><div>{w=
o'rIv qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds Worf.'<br><br><=
/div><div>Now compare this one to the one where we left out {ghaHvaD}:<br><=
br></div><div>{quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj.} =3D 'The sash reminds [someon=
e] of his heritage.'<br><br></div><div>They look the same on the surfac=
e, structurally. But actually very different things have happened. If I cou=
ld draw syntax trees here, you could see it. For a moment, take the English=
ditransitive verb "to teach" as a parallel. It works the same:<b=
r><br></div><div>I teach Klingon to you.<br></div><div>I teach Klingon.<br>=
</div><div>I teach to you. >> I teach you.<br><br></div><div>They'=
;re all correct English, aren't they? The "I teach to you." o=
ne seems incomplete and we prefer to apply the dative shift in English.<br>=
<br></div><div>And I strongly believe that all this above (it's not so =
complex actually, I just wanted to spell it all out to make it clear) is th=
e underlying structure that allows us to say:<br><br></div><div>{SoHvaD tlh=
Ingan vIghojmoH.}<br></div><div>{tlhIngan vIghojmoH.}<br></div><div>{SoHvaD=
vIghojmoH.} >> {qaghojmoH.}<br><br></div><div>So there really is no =
difference between Worf and the room. The difference lies in the nature (to=
be precise: in the valency or transitivity) of the verb we modify. {tuj} i=
s intransitive and has a valency of 1, so the syntax is trivial. {ghoj} is =
transitive and has a valency of 2, so there the issue of assigning the role=
s arises. Most Terran languages follow the hierarchy subject > direct ob=
ject > indirect object > prepositional phrase, but Klingon doesn'=
t have to follow these rules. It was designed to be inhuman (or let's s=
ay: un-English).<br><br></div><div>So, I see no problem here. I acknowledge=
that it might be a little confusing, but it's no reason to invent new =
grammar and suddenly speak of fires heating up FOR rooms or things like tha=
t and claim that canon predicts such sentences when it does clearly not.<br=
><br></div><div>As for {ja'chuq}, that's a different question. I do=
n't have an answer for that yet. I'll have to think about it more.<=
br><br></div><div>- Andr=C3=A9<br></div><div><br><br></div><div><br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-11-23 19:28 G=
MT+01:00 Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nu=
v@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>It=
might help me if you explain how stative verbs (=E2=80=9Cbe verbs)=E2=80=
=9D behave differently when {-moH} is added.</div><div><br></div><div>As I =
remember it, these were the words we have had the most experience with usin=
g {-moH}. They set the standard, and initially, when someone thought of usi=
ng it with a verb that can take a direct object, there was some confusion, =
and controversy ever since.</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon grammar in mos=
t every other area is consistent. When I talk about messiness, I=E2=80=99m =
talking about inconsistency. I=E2=80=99m fine with exceptions, but exceptio=
ns to exceptions to exceptions just gets a little too weird for me.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Worf and the room have the same semantic and syntactic re=
lationship with teaching (causing to learn) and heating (causing to be hot)=
respectively. They should have the same grammar applied to them. Okrand ha=
s given us no reason to expect otherwise.</div><div><br></div><div>No one h=
as addressed what the difference is between Worf and the room, in relation =
to the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the other doesn=E2=80=99t. F=
or that matter, Okrand hasn=E2=80=99t given us a reason that Worf gets {-va=
D} if there=E2=80=99s a direct object, and he doesn=E2=80=99t get it if the=
re isn=E2=80=99t. His semantic or syntactic or grammatical role in learning=
has not changed between the two examples.</div><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM, David=
Holt <<a href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank">kenjutsu=
ka@live.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;font-size:12pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);font-fami=
ly:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px">ghItlh=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px=
">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv:</span></div><br><div><div><div><div>> And if=
that=E2=80=99s true for {wo=E2=80=99rIv} in this example, why is it not tr=
ue for</div><div>> {pa=E2=80=99} in {pa=E2=80=99 tujmoH qul}? Since {wo=
=E2=80=99rIv} is the one who is caused to</div><div>> learn and {pa=E2=
=80=99} is the thing being caused to be hot, it follows that</div><div>>=
{pa=E2=80=99vaD tujmoH qul} should be the right and proper way to write</d=
iv><div>> =E2=80=9CThe fire heats the room.=E2=80=9D The room is the ben=
eficiary of the</div><div>> heating as much as Worf is the beneficiary o=
f the teaching. Why do</div><div>> we draw a line here? What is the diff=
erence? Nobody has touched</div><div>> this yet, apparently because it i=
s ugly and messy, so those arguing</div><div>> this point just ignore it=
and try to redirect the problem away from</div><div>> facing the gramma=
tical issue at hand.</div><div><br></div></div><div>I do, indeed, hold to t=
he concept that Klingons note a difference in the stative verbs ("be v=
erbs)" and the active verbs=C2=A0and that the stative verbs work diffe=
rently with {-moH} than active verbs do.=C2=A0 It's not the only differ=
ence between the types of verbs, so I am comfortable adding this to the lis=
t of differences.</div><div><br></div><div>janSIy</div></div></div></div><s=
pan style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;te=
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ca;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;=
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ilto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;fo=
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hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<=
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