[102549] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 23 13:29:07 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 13:28:48 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <DM3PR16MB0700D6CD4652E363CCA56EFBA4070@DM3PR16MB0700.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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It might help me if you explain how stative verbs (=93be verbs)=94 =
behave differently when {-moH} is added.
As I remember it, these were the words we have had the most experience =
with using {-moH}. They set the standard, and initially, when someone =
thought of using it with a verb that can take a direct object, there was =
some confusion, and controversy ever since.
Klingon grammar in most every other area is consistent. When I talk =
about messiness, I=92m talking about inconsistency. I=92m fine with =
exceptions, but exceptions to exceptions to exceptions just gets a =
little too weird for me.
Worf and the room have the same semantic and syntactic relationship with =
teaching (causing to learn) and heating (causing to be hot) =
respectively. They should have the same grammar applied to them. Okrand =
has given us no reason to expect otherwise.
No one has addressed what the difference is between Worf and the room, =
in relation to the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the other =
doesn=92t. For that matter, Okrand hasn=92t given us a reason that Worf =
gets {-vaD} if there=92s a direct object, and he doesn=92t get it if =
there isn=92t. His semantic or syntactic or grammatical role in learning =
has not changed between the two examples.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>=20
> ghItlh lojmIt tI'wI'nuv:
>=20
> > And if that=92s true for {wo=92rIv} in this example, why is it not =
true for
> > {pa=92} in {pa=92 tujmoH qul}? Since {wo=92rIv} is the one who is =
caused to
> > learn and {pa=92} is the thing being caused to be hot, it follows =
that
> > {pa=92vaD tujmoH qul} should be the right and proper way to write
> > =93The fire heats the room.=94 The room is the beneficiary of the
> > heating as much as Worf is the beneficiary of the teaching. Why do
> > we draw a line here? What is the difference? Nobody has touched
> > this yet, apparently because it is ugly and messy, so those arguing
> > this point just ignore it and try to redirect the problem away from
> > facing the grammatical issue at hand.
>=20
> I do, indeed, hold to the concept that Klingons note a difference in =
the stative verbs ("be verbs)" and the active verbs and that the stative =
verbs work differently with {-moH} than active verbs do. It's not the =
only difference between the types of verbs, so I am comfortable adding =
this to the list of differences.
>=20
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">It might help me if you explain how stative =
verbs (=93be verbs)=94 behave differently when {-moH} is =
added.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I =
remember it, these were the words we have had the most experience with =
using {-moH}. They set the standard, and initially, when someone thought =
of using it with a verb that can take a direct object, there was some =
confusion, and controversy ever since.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Klingon grammar in most every other =
area is consistent. When I talk about messiness, I=92m talking about =
inconsistency. I=92m fine with exceptions, but exceptions to exceptions =
to exceptions just gets a little too weird for me.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Worf and the room have =
the same semantic and syntactic relationship with teaching (causing to =
learn) and heating (causing to be hot) respectively. They should have =
the same grammar applied to them. Okrand has given us no reason to =
expect otherwise.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">No one has addressed what the difference is between Worf and =
the room, in relation to the two verbs, and why one gets {-vaD}, but the =
other doesn=92t. For that matter, Okrand hasn=92t given us a reason that =
Worf gets {-vaD} if there=92s a direct object, and he doesn=92t get it =
if there isn=92t. His semantic or syntactic or grammatical role in =
learning has not changed between the two examples.</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM, David Holt <<a =
href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" class=3D"">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: 12pt; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">ghItlh <span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">lojmIt =
tI'wI'nuv:</span></div><br class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">> And if that=92s true for =
{wo=92rIv} in this example, why is it not true for</div><div =
class=3D"">> {pa=92} in {pa=92 tujmoH qul}? Since {wo=92rIv} is the =
one who is caused to</div><div class=3D"">> learn and {pa=92} is the =
thing being caused to be hot, it follows that</div><div class=3D"">> =
{pa=92vaD tujmoH qul} should be the right and proper way to =
write</div><div class=3D"">> =93The fire heats the room.=94 The room =
is the beneficiary of the</div><div class=3D"">> heating as much as =
Worf is the beneficiary of the teaching. Why do</div><div class=3D"">> =
we draw a line here? What is the difference? Nobody has =
touched</div><div class=3D"">> this yet, apparently because it is =
ugly and messy, so those arguing</div><div class=3D"">> this point =
just ignore it and try to redirect the problem away from</div><div =
class=3D"">> facing the grammatical issue at hand.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">I do, indeed, hold =
to the concept that Klingons note a difference in the stative verbs ("be =
verbs)" and the active verbs and that the stative verbs work =
differently with {-moH} than active verbs do. It's not the only =
difference between the types of verbs, so I am comfortable adding this =
to the list of differences.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">janSIy</div></div></div></div><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" =
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