[102547] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 23 12:05:25 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 12:05:07 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <BAY179-W4185DFCCBB4A0459A99548AA070@phx.gbl>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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For anyone who hasn=92t been reading this for years, I probably should =
start by revealing my personal mission with the Klingon language. For =
me, it=92s a matter of proving the language=92s capacity to express a =
wide variety of meanings, in some cases more clearly than in English. =
I=92m less interested in toying with strange grammar and pushing the =
fringes of what grammatical constructions are allowable than I am in =
actually reading and writing meaningful ideas in Klingon and helping =
others figure out how to do the same.
Comments below.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Rohan Fenwick <qeslagh@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> jIjatlhpu' jIH:
> ...
> taH:
> > It's not possible to use {wI-} with {-chuq}, at least if we take TKD
> > at its word.
>=20
> That takes TKD 4.2.1 not only at its word, but also in isolation and =
without additional and appropriate context. What about {-moH}? It's a =
tool specifically for increasing the count of actants by one, and for =
monovalent verbs, that means adding an object. Whatever you take =
{wIqawchuqmoH} to mean, I contend that it is absolutely grammatical. =
{-chuq} deletes the object of the basic bivalent verb {qaw}. {-moH} adds =
a new object to the newly-monovalent verb {qawchuq}. What's so =
problematic about that?
Well, consider who is causing whom or what to remember, and what they =
are remembering. We cause each other to remember. The {-chuq} defines =
the direct object. But you want this direct object to become an indirect =
object, like {wo'rIv} in {wo=92rIvvaD tlhIngan Hol vIghojmoH}, so that =
you can make room for the third person noun referred to with the {wI-} =
prefix. That=92s pretty radical. I think it=92s fair to call that =
problematic.
If it works, then we could just solve our little {ja=92chuq} problem =
with {*wIja=92chuqmoH*}, right? The =93each other=94 part of {-chuq} now =
becomes the indirect object so that we can use {wI-} to point to a new =
direct object, right?
Well, maybe not so much.
If this is true, then Okrand needs to publish an addendum to his =
addendum because you are stretching the grammar way beyond the bounds of =
what we=92ve been given so far.
For myself, I=92m already challenged to do a decent job of translating =
normal ideas into or from normal Klingon grammar and vocabulary. I don=92t=
feel so driven to warp the rules in significant ways in order to solve =
nonexistent problems with the language. You are accomplishing nothing =
here in terms of expanding what the language can express. You are just =
toying with rules that you=92d probably find boring if you didn=92t get =
to play with them.
These are basic, fundamental rules of grammar. Why are they so hard for =
you to accept? And why aren=92t you writing more in Klingon and writing =
about it less?
Why am *I* writing so much about it and writing in it less?
Well, because these arguments are verbose, and Klingon is not an =
inherently verbose language or culture.
> jIjatlhqa'pu':
> > We know from paq'batlh that {ja'chuq} has become lexified with the
> > meaning "discuss" and can take an object: {quv HIja'chuqQo'} "do
> > not discuss honour with me" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 19.12), so {quv
> > wIja'chuq} is grammatical.
>=20
> jangqa' De'vID, jatlh:
> > Do we actually *know* this, or is it just an educated guess as to
> > what's going on?
>=20
> There's a lot of the spectrum between "fact" and "educated guess".
>=20
> taH:
> > That's what I thought when I first saw it, but then it was pointed =
out
> > (by ghunchu'wI' the last time we tried to dissect {quv HIja'chuqQo'}
> > on this mailing list) that TKD was very explicit about {ja'chuq}.
> > According to TKD 6.2.4: The verb is made up of {ja'} "tell", {-chuq}
> > "each other"; thus, "confer" is "tell each other".
> > So, the sentence {quv HIja'chuqQo'} contradicts what's written in =
TKD,
> > either in section 4.2.1 or in section 6.2.4.
>=20
> Yes, it does. Blatantly so. But there it is, not only bivalent, but =
prefix-tricked-out into the bargain. The sentence could have quite =
simply been the more pedestrian {quv HIjatlhQo'} "don't talk [about] =
honour to me", but it isn't. It simply begs for an explanation, and the =
best explanation, to me, is simply that {ja'chuq} is here acting as a =
lexified verb that can take an object.
It=92s not the best explanation for me.
I see it as one of four things, in order of increasing violation of =
known grammar:
1. It=92s a direct quote, and should have been punctuated {<<quv.>> =
HIja=92chuqQo=92!}
2. {ja=92chuq} has now been declared a separate root verb from {ja=92}. =
It can take direct objects other than the members of the plural subject.
3. Something else that neither you nor I have thought of yet.
4. Your theory that the clear description of how {-chuq} works stops =
applying if {-moH} is added. Suddenly, there are grammatical =
constructions that are possible that were never possible before. It =
doesn=92t add anything to what we can express with the language, but it =
does make for weirder sentences that can=92t be called invalid.
...
> QeS 'utlh=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">For anyone who hasn=92t been reading this for =
years, I probably should start by revealing my personal mission with the =
Klingon language. For me, it=92s a matter of proving the language=92s =
capacity to express a wide variety of meanings, in some cases more =
clearly than in English. I=92m less interested in toying with strange =
grammar and pushing the fringes of what grammatical constructions are =
allowable than I am in actually reading and writing meaningful ideas in =
Klingon and helping others figure out how to do the same.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Comments below.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 23, 2015, at 10:49 AM, Rohan Fenwick <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qeslagh@hotmail.com" class=3D"">qeslagh@hotmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">jIjatlhpu' jIH:<br class=3D"">...<br class=3D"">taH:<br =
class=3D"">> It's not possible to use {wI-} with {-chuq}, at least if =
we take TKD<br class=3D"">> at its word.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">That takes TKD 4.2.1 not only at its word, but also in =
isolation and without additional and appropriate context. What about =
{-moH}? It's a tool specifically for increasing the count of actants by =
one, and for monovalent verbs, that means adding an object. Whatever you =
take {wIqawchuqmoH} to mean, I contend that it is absolutely =
grammatical. {-chuq} deletes the object of the basic bivalent verb =
{qaw}. {-moH} adds a new object to the newly-monovalent verb {qawchuq}. =
What's so problematic about that?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Well, =
consider who is causing whom or what to remember, and what they are =
remembering. We cause each other to remember. The {-chuq} defines the =
direct object. But you want this direct object to become an indirect =
object, like {wo'rIv} in {wo=92rIvvaD tlhIngan Hol vIghojmoH}, so that =
you can make room for the third person noun referred to with the {wI-} =
prefix. That=92s pretty radical. I think it=92s fair to call that =
problematic.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If it works, then we =
could just solve our little {ja=92chuq} problem with {*wIja=92chuqmoH*}, =
right? The =93each other=94 part of {-chuq} now becomes the indirect =
object so that we can use {wI-} to point to a new direct object, =
right?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Well, maybe not so =
much.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If this is true, then Okrand =
needs to publish an addendum to his addendum because you are stretching =
the grammar way beyond the bounds of what we=92ve been given so =
far.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For myself, I=92m already =
challenged to do a decent job of translating normal ideas into or from =
normal Klingon grammar and vocabulary. I don=92t feel so driven to warp =
the rules in significant ways in order to solve nonexistent problems =
with the language. You are accomplishing nothing here in terms of =
expanding what the language can express. You are just toying with rules =
that you=92d probably find boring if you didn=92t get to play with =
them.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>These are basic, fundamental =
rules of grammar. Why are they so hard for you to accept? And why aren=92t=
you writing more in Klingon and writing about it less?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Why am *I* writing so much about it and writing in =
it less?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Well, because these =
arguments are verbose, and Klingon is not an inherently verbose language =
or culture.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">jIjatlhqa'pu':<br class=3D"">> We know from paq'batlh that =
{ja'chuq} has become lexified with the<br class=3D"">> meaning =
"discuss" and can take an object: {quv HIja'chuqQo'} "do<br =
class=3D"">> not discuss honour with me" (paq'batlh: paq'raD 19.12), =
so {quv<br class=3D"">> wIja'chuq} is grammatical.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">jangqa' De'vID, jatlh:<br class=3D"">> Do we actually =
*know* this, or is it just an educated guess as to<br class=3D"">> =
what's going on?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's a lot of the =
spectrum between "fact" and "educated guess".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">taH:<br class=3D"">> That's what I thought when I first =
saw it, but then it was pointed out<br class=3D"">> (by ghunchu'wI' =
the last time we tried to dissect {quv HIja'chuqQo'}<br class=3D"">> =
on this mailing list) that TKD was very explicit about {ja'chuq}.<br =
class=3D"">> According to TKD 6.2.4: The verb is made up of {ja'} =
"tell", {-chuq}<br class=3D"">> "each other"; thus, "confer" is "tell =
each other".<br class=3D"">> So, the sentence {quv HIja'chuqQo'} =
contradicts what's written in TKD,<br class=3D"">> either in section =
4.2.1 or in section 6.2.4.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Yes, it does. =
Blatantly so. But there it is, not only bivalent, but prefix-tricked-out =
into the bargain. The sentence could have quite simply been the more =
pedestrian {quv HIjatlhQo'} "don't talk [about] honour to me", but it =
isn't. It simply begs for an explanation, and the best explanation, to =
me, is simply that {ja'chuq} is here acting as a lexified verb that can =
take an object.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It=92s not the best explanation for =
me.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I see it as one of four things, =
in order of increasing violation of known grammar:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>1. It=92s a direct quote, and should have been =
punctuated {<<quv.>> HIja=92chuqQo=92!}</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>2. {ja=92chuq} has now been declared a separate =
root verb from {ja=92}. It can take direct objects other than the =
members of the plural subject.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>3. =
Something else that neither you nor I have thought of yet.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>4. Your theory that the clear description of how =
{-chuq} works stops applying if {-moH} is added. Suddenly, there are =
grammatical constructions that are possible that were never possible =
before. It doesn=92t add anything to what we can express with the =
language, but it does make for weirder sentences that can=92t be called =
invalid.</div>...<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-family: =
Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">QeS 'utlh<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></div><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
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!important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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