[102407] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : Sentences as objects
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Wed Nov 18 14:02:03 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 14:01:46 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <564C9834.6020807@trimboli.name>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I usually don=E2=80=99t question the accuracy of what you (SuStel) say =
these days because you obviously go to great effort with impressive =
skill to be accurate. Your accuracy rate at this time exceeds mine by a =
wide margin. I=E2=80=99m quite sloppy by comparison and you deserve =
respect for your greater discipline.
That said, I have a distinct memory of Okrand saying that the direct =
object of {jatlh} was words, sentences, language, a speech, etc. It=E2=80=99=
s the thing being said. He said that the direct object of {ja=E2=80=99} =
was the person or persons being addressed, hence {ja=E2=80=99chuq} being =
translated as =E2=80=9Cdiscuss=E2=80=9D because it involves people =
telling each other something.
I have a hazy memory of him hedging his bet with a typical twinkle in =
his eye by saying that if there were some canon example of some other =
object being used with either of these words, then obviously, it=E2=80=99s=
not as strict as that, but that his intent in creating these two =
different words was to have the direct object of {jatlh} being the =
sounds coming out of someone=E2=80=99s mouth, and the direct object of =
{ja=E2=80=99} being the person or persons being told something.
I remember this so clearly because it was a revelation to me at the =
moment. I had not really thought there was much of a difference in the =
two words. I thought they were like {HIja=E2=80=99} and {HISlaH}, two =
different pronunciations for the same word spoken badly by two different =
actors. But he made a point about how he intended these two speech words =
to be different in nature. So, the memory stuck.
My memory is of this coming straight out of Okrand=E2=80=99s mouth, =
either at one of the qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99mey, or in my interview with =
him in HolQeD. These are the only times I=E2=80=99ve talked with him, =
except for a few phone exchanges involved in getting the details =
straight over the word {meqleH}, which he had spoken into a tape =
recorder for a fellow at a con who had built one and handed it to him =
and asked him what to call it.
So, as he hedged, if he did use {ja=E2=80=99} or {jatlh} differently =
than he explained, then obviously, it=E2=80=99s okay because canon =
redefines things all the time, but for myself, out of respect for that =
early glimmer of an idea about how the words should be different, =
that=E2=80=99s the way I=E2=80=99ll always use them.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:24 AM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name> wrote:
>=20
> On 11/18/2015 9:59 AM, Will Martin wrote:
>=20
>> If I wanted to say =E2=80=9CSomeone told me, 'Go home,=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D=
I=E2=80=99d translate it as
>> {muja=E2=80=99 vay=E2=80=99. jatlh. <<juH yIghoS.>>} Literally it =
means =E2=80=9CSomeone told
>> me. He/she said. Go home.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s the clearest way =
that I can express
>> that some unidentified person said, =E2=80=9CGo home,=E2=80=9D to me. =
You could scramble
>> this around several ways. You could say, {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99. =
jatlh. <<juH
>> yIghoS.>> or {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99. <<juH yIghoS.>> jatlh.}
>=20
> In the HolQeD article on this topic, Okrand said that {ja'} is also a =
verb of saying, so {muja'pu' vay', juH yIghoS} "someone told me, 'go =
home'" is an acceptable sentence. (Also {juH yIghoS, muja'pu' vay'}.) =
And don't forget {qaja'pu' jonta' neH} "I told you, engine only."
>=20
> I'd also add the {-pu'}, as I did above, because the telling is a =
completed action.
>=20
>> I tend to differentiate between {ja=E2=80=99} (to tell, as in to =
speak TO
>> SOMEONE) and {jatlh} (to say, as in to say SOMETHING). The object of
>> {ja=E2=80=99} tends to be the person(s) spoken to, while the object =
of {jatlh}
>> tends to be the thing spoken (the words, the language, the speech,
>> whatever).
>=20
> I don't think we've ever seen an unambiguous instance of {ja'} taking =
a DIRECT object. We know it can take some kind of object, e.g., =
{qaja'pu'} "I told you," but since the prefix trick lets first- and =
second-person object prefixes point to elided indirect object pronouns =
instead of the direct object, it's possible that in {qaja'pu'} the {qa-} =
is indicating that "you" are the indirect object. We also know that a =
direct object is not required for this construction, as in the example =
{qajatlh} "I speak to you."
>=20
> Considering the large number of instances of {ja'} in the canon, it's =
odd that finding one with an unambiguous direct object is so difficult.
>=20
> I also think it's quite possible that the direct object of {ja'} is =
the thing being told: a status {Dotlh}, for instance. {Dotlh yIja'} =
"report status!"
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I usually don=E2=80=99t question the accuracy =
of what you (SuStel) say these days because you obviously go to great =
effort with impressive skill to be accurate. Your accuracy rate at this =
time exceeds mine by a wide margin. I=E2=80=99m quite sloppy by =
comparison and you deserve respect for your greater =
discipline.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=
said, I have a distinct memory of Okrand saying that the direct object =
of {jatlh} was words, sentences, language, a speech, etc. It=E2=80=99s =
the thing being said. He said that the direct object of {ja=E2=80=99} =
was the person or persons being addressed, hence {ja=E2=80=99chuq} being =
translated as =E2=80=9Cdiscuss=E2=80=9D because it involves people =
telling each other something.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have a hazy memory of him hedging his =
bet with a typical twinkle in his eye by saying that if there were some =
canon example of some other object being used with either of these =
words, then obviously, it=E2=80=99s not as strict as that, but that his =
intent in creating these two different words was to have the direct =
object of {jatlh} being the sounds coming out of someone=E2=80=99s =
mouth, and the direct object of {ja=E2=80=99} being the person or =
persons being told something.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I remember this so clearly because it =
was a revelation to me at the moment. I had not really thought there was =
much of a difference in the two words. I thought they were like =
{HIja=E2=80=99} and {HISlaH}, two different pronunciations for the same =
word spoken badly by two different actors. But he made a point about how =
he intended these two speech words to be different in nature. So, the =
memory stuck.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My=
memory is of this coming straight out of Okrand=E2=80=99s mouth, either =
at one of the qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99mey, or in my interview with him in =
HolQeD. These are the only times I=E2=80=99ve talked with him, except =
for a few phone exchanges involved in getting the details straight over =
the word {meqleH}, which he had spoken into a tape recorder for a fellow =
at a con who had built one and handed it to him and asked him what to =
call it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, =
as he hedged, if he did use {ja=E2=80=99} or {jatlh} differently than he =
explained, then obviously, it=E2=80=99s okay because canon redefines =
things all the time, but for myself, out of respect for that early =
glimmer of an idea about how the words should be different, that=E2=80=99s=
the way I=E2=80=99ll always use them.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 18, 2015, at 10:24 AM, SuStel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">On 11/18/2015 9:59 =
AM, Will Martin wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If I wanted to say =E2=80=9CSomeone told me, =
'Go home,=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99d translate it as<br =
class=3D"">{muja=E2=80=99 vay=E2=80=99. jatlh. <<juH =
yIghoS.>>} Literally it means =E2=80=9CSomeone told<br =
class=3D"">me. He/she said. Go home.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s the =
clearest way that I can express<br class=3D"">that some unidentified =
person said, =E2=80=9CGo home,=E2=80=9D to me. You could scramble<br =
class=3D"">this around several ways. You could say, {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=
=99. jatlh. <<juH<br class=3D"">yIghoS.>> or {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=
=80=99. <<juH yIghoS.>> jatlh.}<br class=3D""></blockquote><br=
class=3D"">In the HolQeD article on this topic, Okrand said that {ja'} =
is also a verb of saying, so {muja'pu' vay', juH yIghoS} "someone told =
me, 'go home'" is an acceptable sentence. (Also {juH yIghoS, muja'pu' =
vay'}.) And don't forget {qaja'pu' jonta' neH} "I told you, engine =
only."<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd also add the {-pu'}, as I did =
above, because the telling is a completed action.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I tend to differentiate =
between {ja=E2=80=99} (to tell, as in to speak TO<br class=3D"">SOMEONE) =
and {jatlh} (to say, as in to say SOMETHING). The object of<br =
class=3D"">{ja=E2=80=99} tends to be the person(s) spoken to, while the =
object of {jatlh}<br class=3D"">tends to be the thing spoken (the words, =
the language, the speech,<br class=3D"">whatever).<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I don't think we've ever seen an =
unambiguous instance of {ja'} taking a DIRECT object. We know it can =
take some kind of object, e.g., {qaja'pu'} "I told you," but since the =
prefix trick lets first- and second-person object prefixes point to =
elided indirect object pronouns instead of the direct object, it's =
possible that in {qaja'pu'} the {qa-} is indicating that "you" are the =
indirect object. We also know that a direct object is not required for =
this construction, as in the example {qajatlh} "I speak to you."<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Considering the large number of instances of =
{ja'} in the canon, it's odd that finding one with an unambiguous direct =
object is so difficult.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I also think it's =
quite possible that the direct object of {ja'} is the thing being told: =
a status {Dotlh}, for instance. {Dotlh yIja'} "report status!"<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">SuStel<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://trimboli.name" class=3D"">http://trimboli.name</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org<br=
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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