[102384] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : Sentences as objects
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Wed Nov 18 09:59:20 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 09:59:02 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKkrz6m3p6Ks4_umn5aa2bk2Zj-EH5sFujfoAz326qAQA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Perhaps this is the unanswered KLBC message. I=E2=80=99ll take it on.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 13, 2015, at 8:50 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> 'arHa qavan. Hoch Savan.
>=20
> TKD p. 65 : "{'e',net} [..] they are used primarily but not =
exclusively with verbs of thinking or observation (e.g.know,see)"
>=20
> HIjang !
>=20
> 1. how far does the "primarily though not exclusively" extend ? Do =
verbs as (read,feel,observe,hear,find,discover,remember,acknowledge) =
fall under the same category as (know,see) as far as the {'e',net} are =
concerned ?
I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s a hard and fast rule about this. =
If it would make sense, one will tend to use it. The =E2=80=9Cprimarily =
though not exclusively=E2=80=9D was intended to give you a sense of how =
these pronouns are commonly used, not to create a boundary beyond which =
you cannot go. I do caution you not to become such a zealous aficionado =
of Sentence As Object (SAO) to overuse it. It is a tool, but it=E2=80=99s =
not used with enormous frequency, and if you use it too much, your =
speech will be considered marked.
Keep It Simple.
Especially as a new speaker, you want to focus your attention on =
speaking well in simple Klingon sentences. SAO is one of the more =
complex constructions, and you should know up front that there=E2=80=99s =
a troublesome canon example in terms of adverbial placement for the =
second sentence, and an absence of canon for placement that a reasonable =
speaker would expect, that many of us ignore because, hey, a reasonable =
speaker would expect the adverbial of the second sentence to precede the =
pronoun. I forget the details. I merely remember the bad taste in my =
mouth.
> 2. if i want to say <<I am/was told that..>>, would the following be =
correct ?
>=20
> {... e' vIja'lu=E2=80=99}
One problem here is that verbs of speech are radically different than =
all other verbs. A second problem is that Klingon tends to prefer direct =
speech over indirect speech. We got direct speech first, and my memory =
is fuzzy over whether or not we ever got indirect speech.
Another problem is that you are using the prefix shortcut with {=E2=80=98e=
=E2=80=99} as the direct object and =E2=80=9Cme=E2=80=9D as the indirect =
object, and I=E2=80=99ve never seen that done before, and I=E2=80=99m =
not sure I like it. It=E2=80=99s just another layer of complexity in a =
language that values directness and simplicity.
You should study verbs of speech.
The basic construction is that for me to say, =E2=80=9CKrankor said, =
=E2=80=98Go home.=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D, in Klingon, that=E2=80=99s two =
sentences, and they have no grammatical connection whatsoever. {jatlh =
Qanqor. <<juH yIghoS.>>} The punctuation is not Okrand=E2=80=99s =
convention. It=E2=80=99s ours. Otherwise, it=E2=80=99s not all that =
remarkably easy to recognize the boundaries of the quotation.
This could also have been said as {<<juH yIghoS.>> jatlh Qanqor.}
The quotation is not the direct object of the statement of speech. It =
has no grammatical link. The two separate sentences are merely near each =
other. They are not combined into one sentence construction.
If I wanted to say =E2=80=9CSomeone told me, 'Go home,=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D =
I=E2=80=99d translate it as {muja=E2=80=99 vay=E2=80=99. jatlh. <<juH =
yIghoS.>>} Literally it means =E2=80=9CSomeone told me. He/she said. Go =
home.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s the clearest way that I can express that =
some unidentified person said, =E2=80=9CGo home,=E2=80=9D to me. You =
could scramble this around several ways. You could say, {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=
=80=99. jatlh. <<juH yIghoS.>> or {vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99. <<juH =
yIghoS.>> jatlh.}
I tend to differentiate between {ja=E2=80=99} (to tell, as in to speak =
TO SOMEONE) and {jatlh} (to say, as in to say SOMETHING). The object of =
{ja=E2=80=99} tends to be the person(s) spoken to, while the object of =
{jatlh} tends to be the thing spoken (the words, the language, the =
speech, whatever).
When you do use {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, it is the direct object of the =
second verb. You can=E2=80=99t have ANOTHER direct object of that verb, =
and the subject needs to be specific. If you want to use {-lu=E2=80=99} =
on the second verb referring back to an earlier sentence, you should =
instead use {net} and don=E2=80=99t use {-lu=E2=80=99}. Here you=E2=80=99l=
l often see people say {net Sov}, for instance, meaning =E2=80=9COne =
knows that=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D
And don=E2=80=99t forget that the verb {neH} does not take any pronoun =
in an SAO construction. {chab vISop vIneH.}
I hope this helps.
> cpt qunnoQ
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Perhaps this is the unanswered KLBC message. =
I=E2=80=99ll take it on.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 13, 2015, at 8:50 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">'arHa qavan. Hoch Savan.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">TKD p. 65 : "{'e',net} [..] they are used primarily but not =
exclusively with verbs of thinking or observation (e.g.know,see)"<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">HIjang !<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">1. how =
far does the "primarily though not exclusively" extend ? Do verbs as =
(read,feel,observe,hear,find,discover,remember,acknowledge) fall under =
the same category as (know,see) as far as the {'e',net} are concerned =
?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s a hard and fast rule about this. If =
it would make sense, one will tend to use it. The =E2=80=9Cprimarily =
though not exclusively=E2=80=9D was intended to give you a sense of how =
these pronouns are commonly used, not to create a boundary beyond which =
you cannot go. I do caution you not to become such a zealous aficionado =
of Sentence As Object (SAO) to overuse it. It is a tool, but it=E2=80=99s =
not used with enormous frequency, and if you use it too much, your =
speech will be considered marked.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Keep=
It Simple.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Especially as a new =
speaker, you want to focus your attention on speaking well in simple =
Klingon sentences. SAO is one of the more complex constructions, and you =
should know up front that there=E2=80=99s a troublesome canon example in =
terms of adverbial placement for the second sentence, and an absence of =
canon for placement that a reasonable speaker would expect, that many of =
us ignore because, hey, a reasonable speaker would expect the adverbial =
of the second sentence to precede the pronoun. I forget the details. I =
merely remember the bad taste in my mouth.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">2. =
if i want to say <<I am/was told that..>>, would the =
following be correct ?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> {... e' =
vIja'lu=E2=80=99}<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>One problem here is that verbs of speech are =
radically different than all other verbs. A second problem is that =
Klingon tends to prefer direct speech over indirect speech. We got =
direct speech first, and my memory is fuzzy over whether or not we ever =
got indirect speech.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Another problem =
is that you are using the prefix shortcut with {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} as =
the direct object and =E2=80=9Cme=E2=80=9D as the indirect object, and =
I=E2=80=99ve never seen that done before, and I=E2=80=99m not sure I =
like it. It=E2=80=99s just another layer of complexity in a language =
that values directness and simplicity.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You should study verbs of speech.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The basic construction is that for me to say, =
=E2=80=9CKrankor said, =E2=80=98Go home.=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D, in Klingon, =
that=E2=80=99s two sentences, and they have no grammatical connection =
whatsoever. {jatlh Qanqor. <<juH yIghoS.>>} The punctuation =
is not Okrand=E2=80=99s convention. It=E2=80=99s ours. Otherwise, it=E2=80=
=99s not all that remarkably easy to recognize the boundaries of the =
quotation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This could also have been =
said as {<<juH yIghoS.>> jatlh Qanqor.}</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The quotation is not the direct object of the =
statement of speech. It has no grammatical link. The two separate =
sentences are merely near each other. They are not combined into one =
sentence construction.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If I wanted =
to say =E2=80=9CSomeone told me, 'Go home,=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99d =
translate it as {muja=E2=80=99 vay=E2=80=99. jatlh. <<juH =
yIghoS.>>} Literally it means =E2=80=9CSomeone told me. He/she =
said. Go home.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s the clearest way that I can =
express that some unidentified person said, =E2=80=9CGo home,=E2=80=9D =
to me. You could scramble this around several ways. You could say, =
{vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99. jatlh. <<juH yIghoS.>> or =
{vIja=E2=80=99lu=E2=80=99. <<juH yIghoS.>> =
jatlh.}</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I tend to differentiate =
between {ja=E2=80=99} (to tell, as in to speak TO SOMEONE) and {jatlh} =
(to say, as in to say SOMETHING). The object of {ja=E2=80=99} tends to =
be the person(s) spoken to, while the object of {jatlh} tends to be the =
thing spoken (the words, the language, the speech, =
whatever).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>When you do use =
{=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99}, it is the direct object of the second verb. You =
can=E2=80=99t have ANOTHER direct object of that verb, and the subject =
needs to be specific. If you want to use {-lu=E2=80=99} on the second =
verb referring back to an earlier sentence, you should instead use {net} =
and don=E2=80=99t use {-lu=E2=80=99}. Here you=E2=80=99ll often see =
people say {net Sov}, for instance, meaning =E2=80=9COne knows =
that=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>And don=E2=80=99=
t forget that the verb {neH} does not take any pronoun in an SAO =
construction. {chab vISop vIneH.}</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
hope this helps.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">cpt qunnoQ<br =
class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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