[102289] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Fri Nov 13 04:58:28 2015
In-Reply-To: <5645554f.8e116b0a.4a94b.5553@mx.google.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 11:58:14 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============4501745866149719498==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3db7012168305246919bb
--001a11c3db7012168305246919bb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions !
thank you 'arHa for replying (and everyone else too). Things are clearer
now.
On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:13 AM, chransberry@gmail.com <
chransberry@gmail.com> wrote:
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh wrote:
>
> >>Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe=E2=80=99ba=E2=80=99. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu=
=E2=80=99. There are no
> universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the
> examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule
> has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a
> very good rule.
> [Endquote]
>
> Does any language have set rules for language names? In my experience,
> languages are named after whatever's handy - a place, a people group, may=
be
> even an emperor.
>
> -QISta'
>
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, Nov 12, 2015 18:47
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
> To: "tlhInganHol discussion group" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
>
> wejpuH.
>
> Learn the rules and the rules change.
>
> So, since {tlhIngan Hol} actually means {tlhIngan wo=E2=80=99 Hol} that s=
uggests
> that {tlhIngan wo=E2=80=99} means =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s empire, an=
d what we are really
> saying is, =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s empire=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=
=9D.
>
> No wonder they shortened it.
>
> Hmm.
>
> But since it also can be called {ta=E2=80=99 Hol}, that suggests that it=
=E2=80=99s also
> =E2=80=9Cthe emperor=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=9D. So, even though there m=
ay be a lot of tlhInganpu=E2=80=99
> who speak the language, only the emperor gets the language named after hi=
s
> rank. Others may speak other Klingon languages or dialects, but though th=
ey
> are Klingons, they can=E2=80=99t call what they speak {tlhIngan Hol} unle=
ss it=E2=80=99s
> the emperor=E2=80=99s dialect. And I guess that other Klingon planets tha=
t speak
> ta=E2=80=99 Hol don=E2=80=99t get a language named after their planet, li=
ke everybody
> else...
>
> But Vulcans apparently don=E2=80=99t have a leader who dictates the curre=
nt
> dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAVE any dialects, and it=E2=80=99s appare=
ntly
> appropriate to name the language after the planet instead of the people w=
ho
> live there, or any individuals who live there. And Ferengi and Earth and
> all the other planets and the Federation=E2=80=A6
>
> Hmm.
>
> So, tera=E2=80=99nganpu=E2=80=99 speak Federation Standard, and though th=
e Vulcans are
> part of the Federation, they speak the language named after their planet=
=E2=80=A6
> when they aren=E2=80=99t speaking DIvI=E2=80=99 Hol, of course=E2=80=A6 A=
nd all the other planets
> of the Federation and the countries in them seem to speak their own
> language, plus Federation Standard=E2=80=A6
>
> wejpuH.
>
> Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe=E2=80=99ba=E2=80=99. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu=E2=
=80=99. There are no
> universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the
> examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule
> has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a
> very good rule.
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm@kth.se> wrote:
> >
> > > Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t tend to call it {Qo=E2=80=99noS Hol} =
because the planet
> > > doesn=E2=80=99t speak the language. It=E2=80=99s inhabitants do.
> >
> > My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that
> Marc Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should
> more appropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the
> Klingon Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).
> >
> > http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt <
> http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt>
> >
> > In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer t=
o
> a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than "country+ngan +
> Hol".
> >
> > From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50
> > To: tlhInganHol discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
> >
> > For what it=E2=80=99s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not {vu=
lqangan
> loD}, since you=E2=80=99d be talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and=
not a man
> of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I
> know about the genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet =
is
> genitive. The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my
> ear, not so much.
> >
> > Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol}
> literally means =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=
=9Cthe language of a Klingon=E2=80=9D.
> {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly
> translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t te=
nd to call
> it {Qo=E2=80=99noS Hol} because the planet doesn=E2=80=99t speak the lang=
uage. It=E2=80=99s
> inhabitants do.
> >
> > pItlh
> > lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <
> elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com <mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them
> "Ferengi dogs." In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan
> Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.
> >>
> >> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as
> a Klingon insult. Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting i=
n
> this way. However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always
> optional as 'arHa' pointed out). Instead, I would say it as a complete
> sentence.
> >>
> >> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
> >> You are a Ferengi dog!
> >>
> >> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
> >> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
> >>
> >> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that i=
t
> is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
> >>
> >> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
> >>
> >> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
> >>
> >> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
> >>
> >> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
> >>
> >>
> >> I hope this helps,
> >> be''etlh
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
--001a11c3db7012168305246919bb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks =
new questions !<br><br></div>thank you 'arHa for replying (and everyone=
else too). Things are clearer now.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:13 AM, <a href=3D"mai=
lto:chransberry@gmail.com">chransberry@gmail.com</a> <span dir=3D"ltr"><=
<a href=3D"mailto:chransberry@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chransberry@gmai=
l.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=
=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh wrote:<br><br></span><span class=
=3D"">>>Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe=E2=80=99ba=E2=80=99. qaS neH. ngIq =
ghojnISlu=E2=80=99. There are no universal rules for language names. The ru=
les attempt to describe the examples. The examples were not created by usin=
g rules. While every rule has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule =
shows itself not to be a very good rule. <br></span>[Endquote]<br><br>Does =
any language have set rules for language names? In my experience, languages=
are named after whatever's handy - a place, a people group, maybe even=
an emperor.<br><br>-QISta'<span class=3D""><br><br><br>----- Reply mes=
sage -----<br>From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh" <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com</a>><br>Date: Thu, Nov 12, 2015 18:47<br>Subject: [Tlhingan-h=
ol] KLBC: plural in nationalities<br></span><span class=3D"">To: "tlhI=
nganHol discussion group" <<a href=3D"mailto:tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
target=3D"_blank">tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a>><br><br>wejpuH.<br><br>Learn =
the rules and the rules change.<br><br></span><span class=3D"">So, since {t=
lhIngan Hol} actually means {tlhIngan wo=E2=80=99 Hol} that suggests that {=
tlhIngan wo=E2=80=99} means =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s empire, and what w=
e are really saying is, =E2=80=9Ca Klingon=E2=80=99s empire=E2=80=99s langu=
age=E2=80=9D.<br><br></span><span class=3D"">No wonder they shortened it.<b=
r><br>Hmm.<br><br>But since it also can be called {ta=E2=80=99 Hol}, that s=
uggests that it=E2=80=99s also =E2=80=9Cthe emperor=E2=80=99s language=E2=
=80=9D. So, even though there may be a lot of tlhInganpu=E2=80=99 who speak=
the language, only the emperor gets the language named after his rank. Oth=
ers may speak other Klingon languages or dialects, but though they are Klin=
gons, they can=E2=80=99t call what they speak {tlhIngan Hol} unless it=E2=
=80=99s the emperor=E2=80=99s dialect. And I guess that other Klingon plane=
ts that speak ta=E2=80=99 Hol don=E2=80=99t get a language named after thei=
r planet, like everybody else...<br><br>But Vulcans apparently don=E2=80=99=
t have a leader who dictates the current dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAV=
E any dialects, and it=E2=80=99s apparently appropriate to name the languag=
e after the planet instead of the people who live there, or any individuals=
who live there. And Ferengi and Earth and all the other planets and the Fe=
deration=E2=80=A6<br><br>Hmm.<br><br>So, tera=E2=80=99nganpu=E2=80=99 speak=
Federation Standard, and though the Vulcans are part of the Federation, th=
ey speak the language named after their planet=E2=80=A6 when they aren=E2=
=80=99t speaking DIvI=E2=80=99 Hol, of course=E2=80=A6 And all the other pl=
anets of the Federation and the countries in them seem to speak their own l=
anguage, plus Federation Standard=E2=80=A6<br><br>wejpuH.<br><br>Holmey pon=
gmey vIyajnISbe=E2=80=99ba=E2=80=99. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu=E2=80=99. Ther=
e are no universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe =
the examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rul=
e has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a=
very good rule.<br><br></span><span class=3D"">lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=
=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh<br></span><span class=3D"">Door Repair Guy, Retired H=
onorably<br><br><br><br>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck =
<<a href=3D"mailto:felixm@kth.se" target=3D"_blank">felixm@kth.se</a>>=
; wrote:<br>> <br>> > Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t tend to call=
it {Qo=E2=80=99noS Hol} because the planet<br>> > doesn=E2=80=99t sp=
eak the language. It=E2=80=99s inhabitants do.<br>> <br>> My interpre=
tation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that Marc Okrand has e=
xplaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should more appropriately b=
e called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the Klingon Empire&q=
uot; (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).<br>> <br></span>&=
gt; <a href=3D"http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt" target=3D"=
_blank">http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt</a> <<a href=3D=
"http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt</a>><span class=3D"im HOEnZb"=
><br>> <br>> In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard=
way to refer to a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rat=
her than "country+ngan + Hol".<br>> <br></span><span class=3D"=
im HOEnZb">> From: Will Martin <<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>><br>> Sent: T=
hursday, November 12, 2015 22:50<br>> To: tlhInganHol discussion group<b=
r>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities<br>> =
=C2=A0<br>> For what it=E2=80=99s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} =
and not {vulqangan loD}, since you=E2=80=99d be talking about a man of the =
planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave o=
wned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The relationship between=
the man and the planet is genitive. The relationship between the man and a=
Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so much.<br>> <br>> Keep in mind th=
at Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally means =E2=80=9C=
a Klingon=E2=80=99s language=E2=80=9D, or =E2=80=9Cthe language of a Klingo=
n=E2=80=9D. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is common=
ly translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn=E2=80=99t t=
end to call it {Qo=E2=80=99noS Hol} because the planet doesn=E2=80=99t spea=
k the language. It=E2=80=99s inhabitants do.<br>> <br>> pItlh<br>>=
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br>> <br>> <br>> <br></span><div class=
=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabe=
th Lawrence <<a href=3D"mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com</a> <mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:el=
izabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.=
com</a>>> wrote:<br>>> <br>>> I think that qunnoQ was ask=
ing about insulting people by calling them "Ferengi dogs." =C2=A0=
In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH=
>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor. =C2=A0<br>>> <br>>> T=
his is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as a Kli=
ngon insult.=C2=A0 Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in =
this way.=C2=A0 However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always o=
ptional as 'arHa' pointed out).=C2=A0 Instead, I would say it as a =
complete sentence.<br>>> <br>>> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!<br>&=
gt;> You are a Ferengi dog!<br>>> <br>>> verengan Ha'DIb=
aH tlhIH!<br>>> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!<br>>> <br>>&g=
t; This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it =
is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.<br>>> <br=
>>> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it t=
hus:<br>>> <br>>> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man<br>>> <b=
r>>> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)<br>>> =
<br>>> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)<br=
>>> <br>>> <br>>> I hope this helps,<br>>> be'&=
#39;etlh<br>>> <br>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015<br><br></div></div><=
br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
--001a11c3db7012168305246919bb--
--===============4501745866149719498==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============4501745866149719498==--
