[102255] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] rup
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Nov 12 12:22:22 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 12:22:05 -0500
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cLbUj+FnLU7KCQzwpBj9pDOAZU2sh46V0C5Ax8ne1m5vw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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In The Klingon Dictionary (TKD), Okrand consistently uses the term =
=E2=80=9Ccapable of using language=E2=80=9D. Perhaps I=E2=80=99ve missed =
his reference to =E2=80=9Cspeech=E2=80=9D.
The question then becomes, if telepathic beings are capable of =
communicating directly between each other=E2=80=99s minds feelings and =
ideas and any other concept or meaning, does that involve language?
In my opinion, language is a method of representing something in a mind =
so that it can be communicated to another being. True, pure telepaths =
would not require language to communicate. There would not be any =
representative. Communication would be direct, without the formation of =
words or symbols of any kind.
I wrote a sci-fi novella recently with this as the primary interesting =
sci-fi element. There were three races. Humans communicate only through =
language. A second race communicated through language and through =
telepathy. A third race communicated only through telepathy. The second =
race could communicate with the other two, but the first and third could =
not communicate at all. The second race developed a box the third race =
would wear which would=E2=80=A6
=E2=80=A6 okay, this is challenging to describe briefly.
A human says something to a pure telepath. The pure telepath's box =
records the human=E2=80=99s voice and record=E2=80=99s the thoughts of =
the human which the human's language processes then used to utter the =
human words. The telepath tries to communicate something to the human. =
The box reads that thought, looks through the accumulated vocabulary of =
the human=E2=80=99s recorded voice and picks out the massively edited =
recording of the human words and plays it to the human.
This makes for initially very stilted and incomplete communication, but =
as the vocabulary of utterances from the human accumulates, conversation =
becomes more natural. The weird part is that the human has to listen to =
everything said by the telepath in the human=E2=80=99s own voice. Add =
that vocabulary gleaned from one human was useless in communicating with =
another human because of differences between ideas in different human =
minds.
My example was, =E2=80=9CWhen I say =E2=80=98soap=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99m =
thinking of how soap feels when it is wet and when I=E2=80=99m washing =
my hands with it. When you say =E2=80=98soap=E2=80=99 you are thinking =
of what it smells like when it is dry, just as you open a package and =
slide the dry bar out into your hand. The box doesn=E2=80=99t recognize =
these two different experiences as being associated with the same =
physical object, so it doesn=E2=80=99t recognize that we are saying the =
same word.=E2=80=9D
Also, the box records thousands of versions of each word because our =
thoughts are slightly different each time we utter a word. It picks the =
version closest to the idea the pure telepath is trying to convey, so =
over time, the box even begins to have emotionally expressive speech =
because the emotional element of the thought selects the specific =
recording (and its emotional tone of expression).
I thought it was a cool story, but it was rejected as not being original =
enough because it also involved aliens eating humans, and apparently =
that=E2=80=99s been done to death. All the cool stuff about three =
different kinds of communicating minds apparently wasn=E2=80=99t =
interesting enough to the editors in question. Zing! Right past them. =
They either didn=E2=80=99t get it, or simply chose not to notice it =
enough to comment on it. The only comment was about having humans on the =
menu, which really was a very minor subplot in the story, and they =
misinterpreted things enough to expect that the hero of the story was =
headed off to be eaten, which he wasn=E2=80=99t.
Oh well.
So much for becoming a famous sci-fi author=E2=80=A6
Anyway, I would have used {=E2=80=98oH} to describe the pure telepath =
and {ghaH} to describe the race that built the box.
Fortunately, I didn=E2=80=99t quit my day job.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:55 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> interesting thoughts.. I hadn't noticed the distinction between "use =
of language" and "use of speech" !
>=20
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com =
<mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com>> wrote:
> qunnoQ HoD:
> > A Klingon vessel encounters aliens who DON'T speak. They DON'T use =
words.
> > They telepathically feel each others wishes/intentions etc. Or they =
use
> > colors to communicate. What would Klingons use ? {-pu'} or {-mey} ?
>=20
> Note that the definition revolves around whether a being is capable of
> language, not speech. Not all language is spoken. If the Klingons
> recognised the beings as able to communicate, even using colours, they
> would probably use {-pu'}.
>=20
> If they're incorporeal, Klingons might use {HoSDo'}.
>=20
> --
> De'vID
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">In The Klingon Dictionary (TKD), Okrand =
consistently uses the term =E2=80=9Ccapable of using language=E2=80=9D. =
Perhaps I=E2=80=99ve missed his reference to =E2=80=9Cspeech=E2=80=9D.</di=
v><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The question then =
becomes, if telepathic beings are capable of communicating directly =
between each other=E2=80=99s minds feelings and ideas and any other =
concept or meaning, does that involve language?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In my opinion, language is a method of =
representing something in a mind so that it can be communicated to =
another being. True, pure telepaths would not require language to =
communicate. There would not be any representative. Communication would =
be direct, without the formation of words or symbols of any =
kind.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I wrote =
a sci-fi novella recently with this as the primary interesting sci-fi =
element. There were three races. Humans communicate only through =
language. A second race communicated through language and through =
telepathy. A third race communicated only through telepathy. The second =
race could communicate with the other two, but the first and third could =
not communicate at all. The second race developed a box the third race =
would wear which would=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=E2=80=A6 okay, this is challenging to =
describe briefly.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A human says something to a pure telepath. The pure =
telepath's box records the human=E2=80=99s voice and record=E2=80=99s =
the thoughts of the human which the human's language processes then used =
to utter the human words. The telepath tries to communicate something to =
the human. The box reads that thought, looks through the accumulated =
vocabulary of the human=E2=80=99s recorded voice and picks out the =
massively edited recording of the human words and plays it to the =
human.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
makes for initially very stilted and incomplete communication, but as =
the vocabulary of utterances from the human accumulates, conversation =
becomes more natural. The weird part is that the human has to listen to =
everything said by the telepath in the human=E2=80=99s own voice. Add =
that vocabulary gleaned from one human was useless in communicating with =
another human because of differences between ideas in different human =
minds.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My =
example was, =E2=80=9CWhen I say =E2=80=98soap=E2=80=99, I=E2=80=99m =
thinking of how soap feels when it is wet and when I=E2=80=99m washing =
my hands with it. When you say =E2=80=98soap=E2=80=99 you are thinking =
of what it smells like when it is dry, just as you open a package and =
slide the dry bar out into your hand. The box doesn=E2=80=99t recognize =
these two different experiences as being associated with the same =
physical object, so it doesn=E2=80=99t recognize that we are saying the =
same word.=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, the box records thousands of versions of each word =
because our thoughts are slightly different each time we utter a word. =
It picks the version closest to the idea the pure telepath is trying to =
convey, so over time, the box even begins to have emotionally expressive =
speech because the emotional element of the thought selects the specific =
recording (and its emotional tone of expression).</div><div class=3D""><br=
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I thought it was a cool story, but it =
was rejected as not being original enough because it also involved =
aliens eating humans, and apparently that=E2=80=99s been done to death. =
All the cool stuff about three different kinds of communicating minds =
apparently wasn=E2=80=99t interesting enough to the editors in question. =
Zing! Right past them. They either didn=E2=80=99t get it, or simply =
chose not to notice it enough to comment on it. The only comment was =
about having humans on the menu, which really was a very minor subplot =
in the story, and they misinterpreted things enough to expect that the =
hero of the story was headed off to be eaten, which he =
wasn=E2=80=99t.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Oh well.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So much for becoming a famous sci-fi author=E2=80=A6</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Anyway, I would have =
used {=E2=80=98oH} to describe the pure telepath and {ghaH} to describe =
the race that built the box.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Fortunately, I didn=E2=80=99t quit my =
day job.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:55 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">interesting thoughts.. I hadn't noticed the =
distinction between "use of language" and "use of speech" !<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:37 PM, De'vID <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">qunnoQ HoD:<br =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"">> A Klingon vessel encounters aliens who DON'T =
speak. They DON'T use words.<br class=3D"">
> They telepathically feel each others wishes/intentions etc. Or they =
use<br class=3D"">
> colors to communicate. What would Klingons use ? {-pu'} or {-mey} =
?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Note that the definition revolves around whether a being is =
capable of<br class=3D"">
language, not speech. Not all language is spoken. If the Klingons<br =
class=3D"">
recognised the beings as able to communicate, even using colours, =
they<br class=3D"">
would probably use {-pu'}.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
If they're incorporeal, Klingons might use {HoSDo'}.<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
De'vID<br class=3D"">
</font></span></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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