[102247] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] rup
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Nov 12 10:50:37 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:50:19 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJiSB5j+d+zGifsFnyLC-KkEHVnnVWH05sgumt8z6p3ug@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============9085272983070126467==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5C3DD75A-D95A-4D29-9EF3-EA2CA7E939E0"
--Apple-Mail=_5C3DD75A-D95A-4D29-9EF3-EA2CA7E939E0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is determined by the ability to =
use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is code words for =E2=80=9Chas =
a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As a class of nouns, is this an =
example of a being capable of using language? If someone speaks of =
{targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would not be able to stop myself from =
responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a' targhmeylIj SoH je? =
boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop jatlhtaHghachraj?}
Data is an interesting example. I think that anyone who spent time with =
him would recognize what most people recognize about him. He=E2=80=99s =
not just an anthropomorphic device. He has achieved a status, =
particularly in terms of use of language, that crosses a threshold =
beyond that of the class of nouns we refer to as computers.
For most computers, language is an interface to a command set and =
replies to those commands. Data asks questions without being prompted to =
do so. Data discusses things. He initiates conversations. Even the =
Enterprise computer does not process language on the same level that =
Data does. I=E2=80=99d use {ghaH} and not {=E2=80=98oH} for Data. I=E2=80=99=
d use {=E2=80=98oH} and not {ghaH} for the Enterprise computer.
Telepathic aliens are another interesting case. If they were as the =
telepaths Star Trek has always shown us, they have been able to speak =
AND communicate via telepathy. If they communicated with telepathy, but =
could not read, write, speak, or hear communicative sounds, then I=E2=80=99=
m not sure what a Klingon would think about their gender.
Most warlike cultures kill anything they don=E2=80=99t understand, so =
they=E2=80=99d probably kill the aliens before they had to talk about =
them much, but that hardly answers your question.
I simply don=E2=80=99t know.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:12 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Which class does Data belong too?
>=20
> ok,this is *the* question ! I don't see a way,one could objectively =
decide. It depends on the individual person's views about who is =
human,and who isn't. My personal choice in sorting this out,would be as =
follows :
>=20
> - if someone has a soul then use {-pu'}
> - if something doesn't have a soul then use {-mey}
>=20
> ..of course this is just my personal opinion,as an orthodox christian =
who believes in life after death,the human soul etc etc. If we excluded =
the religious criteria though,then yes I believe that the way to go is =
who can speak,and who can't.
>=20
> Think of this though.. Can a dog speak ? One would say no.. (I would =
say no too). But when your dog barks to alert you that something is =
wrong,then who can really say,that it isn't actually "speaking" ? But =
then you will ask me "why don't you accept that dogs have a soul too ?"
> Anyway,this gets way too complicated and would be a very nice topic to =
discuss in a mailing list concerning religion/spirituality etc..
>=20
> What is though a nice topic of discussion in this list is the =
following :
>=20
> A Klingon vessel encounters aliens who DON'T speak. They DON'T use =
words. They telepathically feel each others wishes/intentions etc. Or =
they use colors to communicate. What would Klingons use ? {-pu'} or =
{-mey} ?
>=20
> ..for what is worth (if i understand how this phrase is to be used in =
english) I always considered Data a machine. However I was pissed and =
sad,to see that eventually it was destroyed.
>=20
> cpt qunnoQ
>=20
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 4:36 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com =
<mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com>> wrote:
> ghItlh Quvar:
>=20
> > English people even refer to their pets as he or she, but only if =
they
> > have personal contact. In German, the animal's gender is always used
> > correctly, not matter how personal the contact is.
>=20
> Hoch Ha'DIbaH 'uSDu' jojDaq 'oHtaHbogh 'ay''e' DatobnIS 'e' =
qay'be''a'?
>=20
> janSIy
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_5C3DD75A-D95A-4D29-9EF3-EA2CA7E939E0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">When Okrand tells us that Klingon gender is =
determined by the ability to use language, I don=E2=80=99t think this is =
code words for =E2=80=9Chas a soul=E2=80=9D. I take him at his word. As =
a class of nouns, is this an example of a being capable of using =
language? If someone speaks of {targhpu=E2=80=99wIj}, I probably would =
not be able to stop myself from responding, {toH, pIj boja'chuq=E2=80=99a'=
targhmeylIj SoH je? boja=E2=80=99chuqtaHvIS nuq bop =
jatlhtaHghachraj?}</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Data is an interesting example. I think that anyone who spent =
time with him would recognize what most people recognize about him. =
He=E2=80=99s not just an anthropomorphic device. He has achieved a =
status, particularly in terms of use of language, that crosses a =
threshold beyond that of the class of nouns we refer to as =
computers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For =
most computers, language is an interface to a command set and replies to =
those commands. Data asks questions without being prompted to do so. =
Data discusses things. He initiates conversations. Even the Enterprise =
computer does not process language on the same level that Data does. =
I=E2=80=99d use {ghaH} and not {=E2=80=98oH} for Data. I=E2=80=99d use =
{=E2=80=98oH} and not {ghaH} for the Enterprise computer.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Telepathic aliens are =
another interesting case. If they were as the telepaths Star Trek has =
always shown us, they have been able to speak AND communicate via =
telepathy. If they communicated with telepathy, but could not read, =
write, speak, or hear communicative sounds, then I=E2=80=99m not sure =
what a Klingon would think about their gender.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Most warlike cultures kill anything =
they don=E2=80=99t understand, so they=E2=80=99d probably kill the =
aliens before they had to talk about them much, but that hardly answers =
your question.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
simply don=E2=80=99t know.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:12 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">> Which class does Data =
belong too?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>ok,this is *the* question =
! I don't see a way,one could objectively decide. It depends on the =
individual person's views about who is human,and who isn't. My personal =
choice in sorting this out,would be as follows :<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>- if someone has a soul then use {-pu'}<br =
class=3D""></div>- if something doesn't have a soul then use {-mey}<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>..of course this is just my personal =
opinion,as an orthodox christian who believes in life after death,the =
human soul etc etc. If we excluded the religious criteria though,then =
yes I believe that the way to go is who can speak,and who can't.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Think of this though.. Can a dog speak ? =
One would say no.. (I would say no too). But when your dog barks to =
alert you that something is wrong,then who can really say,that it isn't =
actually "speaking" ? But then you will ask me "why don't you accept =
that dogs have a soul too ?"<br class=3D""></div>Anyway,this gets way =
too complicated and would be a very nice topic to discuss in a mailing =
list concerning religion/spirituality etc..<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>What is though a nice topic of discussion in this list =
is the following :<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>A Klingon vessel =
encounters aliens who DON'T speak. They DON'T use words. They =
telepathically feel each others wishes/intentions etc. Or they use =
colors to communicate. What would Klingons use ? {-pu'} or {-mey} ?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">..for what is worth (if =
i understand how this phrase is to be used in english) I always =
considered Data a machine. However I was pissed and sad,to see that =
eventually it was destroyed.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>cpt qunnoQ<br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Nov 12, 2015 at 4:36 PM, David Holt <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kenjutsuka@live.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">ghItlh Quvar:<br =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
> English people even refer to their pets as he or she, but only if =
they<br class=3D"">
> have personal contact. In German, the animal's gender is always =
used<br class=3D"">
> correctly, not matter how personal the contact is.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Hoch Ha'DIbaH 'uSDu' jojDaq 'oHtaHbogh 'ay''e' DatobnIS 'e' =
qay'be''a'?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
janSIy<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_5C3DD75A-D95A-4D29-9EF3-EA2CA7E939E0--
--===============9085272983070126467==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============9085272983070126467==--
