[102245] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Thu Nov 12 10:31:17 2015
In-Reply-To: <04271BAE-E697-466A-A6C4-CF1A376EEFD6@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 17:31:03 +0200
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> when you say {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT pronounced =E2=80=9Cka-pla=
a=E2=80=9D. The first
syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la=E2=80=99}, not
=E2=80=9Cplaaaaah=E2=80=9D. Most actors in the movies mispronounce it.
thanks for pointing this out ; I was mispronouncing it !
On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Advice to anyone interested in becoming any kind of grammarian on this
> list: It helps to not be bothered by having others point out your errors.
> It took me years to learn this. This is a place where all your errors wil=
l
> come to light. Even ones that aren=E2=80=99t errors, but merely differenc=
es of
> opinion.
>
> But in this case, yes, it was an error. It should have been
> {Separtanganpu=E2=80=99}.
>
> And yes, I changed it because Klingons never initiate syllables with a
> consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as a student of Klingon, when you s=
ay
> {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT pronounced =E2=80=9Cka-plaa=E2=80=9D. T=
he first syllable is
> {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la=E2=80=99}, not =E2=80=9Cpl=
aaaaah=E2=80=9D. Most
> actors in the movies mispronounce it.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
> why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the ending
> for inhabitants of a place.
> I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
> On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Let me know if you approve.
>>
>> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the
>> defiance of the original phrase.
>>
>> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as
>> simple as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that'=
s
>> why I believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresse=
s
>> the culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboya=
nt
>> words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close =
to
>> Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for
>> war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people
>> stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand
>> combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
>>
>> > Separtanpu=E2=80=99
>>
>> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference
>>> between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words =
in
>>> one language to the closest words in another language and tie them toge=
ther
>>> with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second langu=
age,
>>> then you have encoded one message into another language.
>>>
>>> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original
>>> statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original state=
ment
>>> using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the
>>> second language, then you have a chance of translating the original mes=
sage.
>>>
>>> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying
>>> to translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to underst=
and
>>> what you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at tr=
anslation:
>>>
>>> Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIc=
haghchugh vaj
>>> SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.
>>>
>>> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!
>>>
>>> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that
>>> were contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statemen=
ts.
>>> I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in o=
rder to better
>>> convey the expressions.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you approve.
>>>
>>> pItlh
>>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A moment of clarity
>>> >
>>> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest o=
f
>>> the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as mys=
elf.
>>> This concerns something,which is well known to experienced
>>> klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to
>>> digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the followin=
g
>>> happened.
>>> >
>>> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king
>>> leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender =
his
>>> arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get th=
em"
>>> which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
>>> >
>>> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in
>>> klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure=
out
>>> the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the
>>> "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* ri=
ght.
>>> >
>>> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things
>>> clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my=
way
>>> in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became
>>> clearer.
>>> >
>>> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
>>> >
>>> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,i=
s
>>> "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't =
know
>>> ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is a=
s
>>> defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself =
i
>>> have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he he=
ard
>>> it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
>>> >
>>> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak
>>> today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which=
in
>>> no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the
>>> original phrase did.
>>> >
>>> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find
>>> all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way th=
at
>>> modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement=
)
>>> feeling of the original phrase.
>>> >
>>> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
>>> >
>>> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon
>>> lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate =
in
>>> current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingo=
n
>>> would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
>>> >
>>> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be
>>> able to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that=
any
>>> other language has to say. things don't work that way.
>>> >
>>> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has
>>> its beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible
>>> inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign o=
f
>>> "deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact th=
at
>>> languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the s=
ame
>>> way that individual people are always different compared to each other.
>>> >
>>> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always
>>> echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you hav=
e
>>> read him in the original klingon.."
>>> >
>>> > be that as it may..
>>> >
>>> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
>>> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
>>> >
>>> > cpt qunnoQ
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>> when you say {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT p=
ronounced =E2=80=9Cka-plaa=E2=80=9D. The first=20
syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la=E2=80=99}, not=
=20
=E2=80=9Cplaaaaah=E2=80=9D. Most actors in the movies mispronounce it.<br><=
br></div>thanks for pointing this out ; I was mispronouncing it !<br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Nov 12, 2=
015 at 5:24 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitt=
i7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div>Advice to anyone interested in becoming any kind of grammarian o=
n this list: It helps to not be bothered by having others point out your er=
rors. It took me years to learn this. This is a place where all your errors=
will come to light. Even ones that aren=E2=80=99t errors, but merely diffe=
rences of opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>But in this case, yes, it was a=
n error. It should have been {Separtanganpu=E2=80=99}.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>And yes, I changed it because Klingons never initiate syllables with a=
consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as a student of Klingon, when you sa=
y {Qapla=E2=80=99!} The word is NOT pronounced =E2=80=9Cka-plaa=E2=80=9D. T=
he first syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la=E2=80=
=99}, not =E2=80=9Cplaaaaah=E2=80=9D. Most actors in the movies mispronounc=
e it.</div><span class=3D""><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On No=
v 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <<a href=3D"mailto:karenalessio@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">karenalessio@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><=
div><p dir=3D"ltr">why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought &quo=
t;-ngan"was the ending for inhabitants of a place.<br>
I'm curious, still a beginner myself.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" =
<<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.co=
m</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>> Let me know if you approve.<br>=
<br></div>it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully conv=
ey the defiance of the original phrase.<br><br></div>the beauty of the orig=
inal phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple as can be,an=
d that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I believe wh=
oever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the culture Spart=
ans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant words were to=
be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to Klingons as c=
an be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for war. And of cou=
rse every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people stood against an em=
pire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand combat,achieving a glori=
ous death in the end..<br><br></div>> Separtanpu=E2=80=99<br><br></div><=
div>why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?<br></div><div><br></di=
v><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gm=
ail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The issue I=
think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference between transl=
ating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in one language to=
the closest words in another language and tie them together with the close=
st grammatical form that you can find in the second language, then you have=
encoded one message into another language.<br>
<br>
If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original statem=
ent and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement using=
the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the second l=
anguage, then you have a chance of translating the original message.<br>
<br>
After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to t=
ranslate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand what=
you think is lost in the original, here=E2=80=99s my attempt at translatio=
n:<br>
<br>
Persian messenger: Separtanpu=E2=80=99! rejeyta=E2=80=99! nuHmeylIj tIchagh=
chugh vaj SuyIntaH =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 wIchaw=E2=80=99qang.<br>
<br>
Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99? ghotob jay=E2=80=99!<br>
<br>
Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were c=
ontextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I don=
=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to b=
etter convey the expressions.<br>
<br>
Let me know if you approve.<br>
<br>
pItlh<br>
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv<br>
<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
> On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> A moment of clarity<br>
><br>
> I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of=
the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself=
. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,st=
ill it remains something that newcomers may find hard to digest. At least i=
was finding hard to digest myself,until the following happened.<br>
><br>
> earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonida=
s' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arm=
s ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them=
" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.<br>
><br>
> but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,so=
mething didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out t=
he klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the &q=
uot;feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *=
feel* right.<br>
><br>
> but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things cl=
earer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way i=
n a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clear=
er.<br>
><br>
> but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.<=
br>
><br>
> the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is=
"molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who d=
oesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will=
*feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fac=
t,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's mes=
senger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..<br>
><br>
> but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak to=
day,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get th=
em" which in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggress=
ion as the original phrase did.<br>
><br>
> ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find al=
l kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that mod=
ern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) f=
eeling of the original phrase.<br>
><br>
> thinking all this,i asked myself..<br>
><br>
> does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "m=
olon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot tran=
slate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that k=
lingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?<br>
><br>
> finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be abl=
e to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any ot=
her language has to say. things don't work that way.<br>
><br>
> anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has it=
s beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inabilit=
y to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "defi=
ciency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that l=
anguages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same w=
ay that individual people are always different compared to each other.<br>
><br>
> maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always=
echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you h=
ave read him in the original klingon.."<br>
><br>
> be that as it may..<br>
><br>
> SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !<br>
> ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !<br>
><br>
> cpt qunnoQ<br>
><br>
</div></div><div><div>> _______________________________________________<=
br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-=
hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_____________________=
__________________________<br>
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
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