[102160] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Fatairae)
Tue Nov 10 12:05:50 2015
From: Fatairae <fatairae@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAMwO7AEXbbv0gto-x9JP0KKUpnPbVZEWrLBW+4b_gTfvV5Pjfw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:05:31 -0500
To: Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============2620915310065941652==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary=Apple-Mail-DD844431-B2F9-42E4-A12E-B92A58A6C60F
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
--Apple-Mail-DD844431-B2F9-42E4-A12E-B92A58A6C60F
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=windows-1251
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While I agree that FB provides better organization for its threads and messa=
ges, the fact that it is reliant on their storage for the msgs makes it diff=
icult to use. With mail, I can easily copy, paste, and store comments, even=
when not connected to the Internet. Just my two cents as a newcomer to the=
group.
I agree wholeheartedly with Lieven on the subject of mass responses vs a sin=
gle organized response; while learning, I find it's easier to internalize a s=
ingle answer, and later learn the variants, rather then try to sort out 50, n=
ot knowing what of which is best.
Having a single "beginners" answer, perhaps followed by the wisdom of the c=
ommunity, would make it much easier to internalize.
On Nov 10, 2015, at 11:08, Karen Alessio <karenalessio@gmail.com> wrote:
I just joined the klingon groups there on FB... the only thing I see being a=
privacy issue is that they are "open groups" which means anything you post t=
here can show up on friends' newsfeeds.... which i imagine can get annoying f=
or your friends. but a good workaround was suggested, to use a special email=
address for signing up with no contacts in the address book, and dont "frie=
nd" anyone non-klingon affiliated. I'm just using my regular FB account, but=
my friends are mostly geeks too, and I hope they dont mind. lol
> On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
> NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only tos=
ses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everything abo=
ut one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.
>=20
> To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an e=
mail address. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email accou=
nt and use a fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and lock down=
everything else.
>=20
> You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to frien=
d on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not Faceboo=
k. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell Facebook!=20
>=20
> Sure Facebook can track what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the w=
hole world with this mailing list because we make it public. If we are creat=
ing public information, why does it matter if a company uses it? They could u=
se it now.=20
>=20
> qurgh
>=20
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>=
wrote:
>> I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I=92d just like=
to point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the wi=
nd. We willingly give lots of personal information and links to all the peop=
le and groups we choose to associate with to a corporation with a reputation=
for trying really hard to be as fascist as possible, backing off only when t=
here=92s an outcry about something specific that they=92ve done that pisses o=
ff hundreds of thousands of people.
>>=20
>> Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude =97 that we are ob=
jects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal concern fo=
r our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data and with conn=
ections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our friends are=
, completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD them that we are=
friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combinations of common fr=
iends that suggest that we should be associated with one another. Facebook t=
hen asks you to confirm those associations to improve the accuracy of their d=
ata.
>>=20
>> If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains s=
ervers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated with=
them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a corporation who=
se only concern is profit, value means profit. There are people in China rig=
ht now who are in prison for their political interests because Yahoo decided=
to hand over data the government asked for rather than lose the profitable C=
hinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=92t consider that a reasonable bu=
siness decision.
>>=20
>> So, I don=92t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do what y=
ou like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
>>=20
>> I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes, figurin=
g that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer probably=
won=92t land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical Baptists t=
ake over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky and consider=
withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.
>>=20
>> But hey, it=92s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that trump=
s any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil, mult=
i-national corporation for some future use over which we=92ll have no influe=
nce at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we=92ll be dead by then=
. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?
>>=20
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>>> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
>>>>> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
>>>>> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>>>>=20
>>>> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on=
the archive, right here:
>>>> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>>>=20
>>> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least 5000=
+ messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to around 2=
000.
>>>=20
>>> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period. Un=
fortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
>>> =20
>>>>> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it real=
ly
>>>>> enough to warrant a new BG?
>>>>=20
>>>> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be s=
omeone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with onl=
y one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What can ha=
ppen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>>>=20
>>> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after hel=
ping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way more p=
eople than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" group. If we a=
re going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that workload needs=
to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a que=
stion and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's why we nee=
d a BG.
>>>=20
>>> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said somet=
hing along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers, then th=
ey know it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter arguments to t=
his part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple different descriptio=
ns of the same thing is very helpful for a student, as it gives them multipl=
e view-points to look from. We also have enough people that each one of the f=
our beginners that have recently raised their hands could get their own, per=
sonal, BG. Why dump all the work on one person? If the goal is to help peopl=
e learn, then giving them one-on-one service seems like it would be them mos=
t efficient system.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>>>>=20
>>>> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many pre=
fer facebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an email account y=
ou need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>>>=20
>>> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing li=
sts: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or somethin=
g!"
>>>=20
>>> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem the=
y prefer that format.
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially a=
rchiving and searching treads.
>>>=20
>>> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword searc=
hing just like we do on the KLI site.=20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>>>>=20
>>>> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a group=
".
>>>=20
>>> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just look=
through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all the "Ho=
w do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the intro messag=
e. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the list. At least w=
ith Facebook you can see every person that is joining and they have to be ap=
proved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being the BG might=
be easier on Facebook, since they could send a personalized private message=
to each person as they join.=20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we shou=
ld
>>>>> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>>>>=20
>>>> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that newb=
ies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around", someone=
to trust.
>>>=20
>>> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking=
for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a year (with=
no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you really m=
ean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain things". Techn=
ically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing any of us coul=
d do about it.
>>>=20
>>> qurgh
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail-DD844431-B2F9-42E4-A12E-B92A58A6C60F
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>While I agree that FB provides better o=
rganization for its threads and messages, the fact that it is reliant on the=
ir storage for the msgs makes it difficult to use. With mail, I can ea=
sily copy, paste, and store comments, even when not connected to the Interne=
t. Just my two cents as a newcomer to the group.</div><div><br></div><=
div>I agree wholeheartedly with Lieven on the subject of mass responses vs a=
single organized response; while learning, I find it's easier to internaliz=
e a single answer, and later learn the variants, rather then try to sort out=
50, not knowing what of which is best.</div><div> Having a single "be=
ginners" answer, perhaps followed by the wisdom of the community, would make=
it much easier to internalize.</div><div><br>On Nov 10, 2015, at 11:08, Kar=
en Alessio <<a href=3D"mailto:karenalessio@gmail.com">karenalessio@gmail.=
com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><div><p dir=3D"ltr">I just joined the klingo=
n groups there on FB... the only thing I see being a privacy issue is that t=
hey are "open groups" which means anything you post there can show up on fri=
ends' newsfeeds.... which i imagine can get annoying for your friends. but a=
good workaround was suggested, to use a special email address for signing u=
p with no contacts in the address book, and dont "friend" anyone non-klingon=
affiliated. I'm just using my regular FB account, but my friends are mostly=
geeks too, and I hope they dont mind. lol</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj" <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"a=
ttribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>NO NO NO NO N=
O!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only tosses all pretens=
e of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everything about one's life. O=
ne has the control until one gives it up.</div><div><br></div><div>To sign u=
p for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an email addres=
s. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email account and use a=
fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and lock down everything e=
lse.</div><div><br></div><div>You chose what to share on Facebook, not Faceb=
ook. You choose who to friend on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to p=
ost on Facebook, not Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something,=
don't tell Facebook! <br></div><div><br></div><div>Sure Facebook can t=
rack what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the whole world with this m=
ailing list because we make it public. If we are creating public information=
, why does it matter if a company uses it? They could use it now. </div=
><div><br></div><div>qurgh</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr=
"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitt=
i7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>I understand that Facebook is the wav=
e of the future, but I=E2=80=99d just like to point out that by using it, on=
e tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind. We willingly give lots of pers=
onal information and links to all the people and groups we choose to associa=
te with to a corporation with a reputation for trying really hard to be as f=
ascist as possible, backing off only when there=E2=80=99s an outcry about so=
mething specific that they=E2=80=99ve done that pisses off hundreds of thous=
ands of people.</div><div><br></div><div>Basically, the corporation has a ps=
ychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we are objects to be manipulated for its p=
rofit and advantage with minimal concern for our well-being as living entiti=
es. We provide them with data and with connections. Some wonder how Facebook=
is so good at guessing who our friends are, completely blind to the simple f=
act that our friends TOLD them that we are friends, or that we have mathemat=
ically derivable combinations of common friends that suggest that we should b=
e associated with one another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those assoc=
iations to improve the accuracy of their data.</div><div><br></div><div>If o=
ne of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains servers=
decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated with them,=
this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a corporation whose onl=
y concern is profit, value means profit. There are people in China right now=
who are in prison for their political interests because Yahoo decided to ha=
nd over data the government asked for rather than lose the profitable Chines=
e market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=80=99t consider that a reasonable b=
usiness decision.</div><div><br></div><div>So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if m=
ailing lists are considered quaint. Do what you like on Facebook. Do what yo=
u dare there.</div><div><br></div><div>I use it for one small part of my lif=
e, for promotional purposes, figuring that dancing is harmless enough that b=
eing identified as a dancer probably won=E2=80=99t land me in prison even in=
the future, unless the radical Baptists take over, and even with that relat=
ively safe topic, I feel icky and consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD=
withdraw.</div><div><br></div><div>But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we wa=
nt to be popular, so I guess that trumps any concerns about improving the da=
ta collected by a heartless, evil, multi-national corporation for some futur=
e use over which we=E2=80=99ll have no influence at the time. That regret is=
in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll be dead by then. No sense showing any ca=
ution now, before that happens, right?</div><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helveti=
ca;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmIt tI=
'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div><div>On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 A=
M, qurgh lungqIj <<a href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" target=3D"_blank">q=
urgh@wizage.net</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><div><div><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10, 2=
015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.=
de" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><span>Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't<br>
enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on the a=
rchive, right here:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum</a></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>That's good info. Back when the BG was going str=
ong we got at least 5000+ messages. The position seems to have died when we d=
ropped down to around 2000.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd be interested to se=
e membership levels over the same time period. Unfortunately we don't have a=
ccess to any of that kind of data.</div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, i=
s it really<br>
enough to warrant a new BG?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be someon=
e appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with only one=
newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What can happen?=
A workless BG will not starve to death.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after helpin=
g three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way more peop=
le than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" group. If we are g=
oing to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that workload needs to b=
e equal for each participant in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div> <=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: begi=
nners ask a question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. Tha=
t's why we need a BG.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Except that when=
I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said something along the lines=
of "It's good for them to get multiple answers, then they know it's not bei=
ng made up" so there appears to be counter arguments to this part of the BG p=
aradigm. I also think that multiple different descriptions of the same thing=
is very helpful for a student, as it gives them multiple view-points to loo=
k from. We also have enough people that each one of the four beginners that h=
ave recently raised their hands could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump a=
ll the work on one person? If the goal is to help people learn, then giving t=
hem one-on-one service seems like it would be them most efficient system.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-=
left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">People=
just don't use mailing lists the way they used to<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many prefer f=
acebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an email account y=
ou need to log in or use a special software on your computer.<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon sai=
d about mailing lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using W=
indows 95 or something!"</div><div><br></div><div>Also we just had som=
eone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem they prefer that format.</d=
iv><div> <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bor=
der-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially archi=
ving and searching treads.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Facebook groups h=
ave both archiving and searching. They do keyword searching just like we do o=
n the KLI site. </div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bor=
der-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><s=
pan><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid=
;padding-left:1ex">Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly)=
.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a group".</b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>That argument was true for this list for many m=
any many years. Just look through the archives for all the spam. Also look t=
hrough it for all the "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not=
reading the intro message. We also had to deal with people subscribing othe=
rs to the list. At least with Facebook you can see every person that is join=
ing and they have to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. I=
n fact, being the BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send a pe=
rsonalized private message to each person as they join. </div><div><br>=
</div><div> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bord=
er-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">While the BG role=
has been very important in the past, perhaps we should<br>
look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that newbies k=
now where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around", someone to t=
rust.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have no issue with someone being in c=
harge. In fact, I've been looking for someone to take on the running on this=
email list for over a year (with no luck, so I've been doing that too), alt=
hough by "in charge" you really mean "keeping an eye on the messages and res=
ponding to certain things". Technically this list could disappear tomorrow a=
nd there's nothing any of us could do about it.</div><div><br></div><div>qur=
gh</div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div></div></div></div><span>=
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list=
<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@k=
li.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br></=
span></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>________________________________=
_______________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.o=
rg</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a>=
<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a>=
<br>
<br></blockquote></div>
</div><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><=
span>Tlhingan-hol mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-ho=
l@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"http://mail.k=
li.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/t=
lhingan-hol</a></span><br></div></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail-DD844431-B2F9-42E4-A12E-B92A58A6C60F--
--===============2620915310065941652==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============2620915310065941652==--
