[102152] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Tue Nov 10 10:42:16 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2015 10:42:00 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
In-Reply-To: <CALPi+eSVNZ3gcZWgy+LRmvGBEW=75eLUXW-p+vYtgmqp96KsRA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I=E2=80=99d =
just like to point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of =
privacy to the wind. We willingly give lots of personal information and =
links to all the people and groups we choose to associate with to a =
corporation with a reputation for trying really hard to be as fascist as =
possible, backing off only when there=E2=80=99s an outcry about =
something specific that they=E2=80=99ve done that pisses off hundreds of =
thousands of people.
Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we =
are objects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal =
concern for our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data =
and with connections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing =
who our friends are, completely blind to the simple fact that our =
friends TOLD them that we are friends, or that we have mathematically =
derivable combinations of common friends that suggest that we should be =
associated with one another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those =
associations to improve the accuracy of their data.
If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains =
servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated =
with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a =
corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are =
people in China right now who are in prison for their political =
interests because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked =
for rather than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that =
Facebook doesn=E2=80=99t consider that a reasonable business decision.
So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do =
what you like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes, =
figuring that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a =
dancer probably won=E2=80=99t land me in prison even in the future, =
unless the radical Baptists take over, and even with that relatively =
safe topic, I feel icky and consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD =
withdraw.
But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess =
that trumps any concerns about improving the data collected by a =
heartless, evil, multi-national corporation for some future use over =
which we=E2=80=99ll have no influence at the time. That regret is in the =
future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll be dead by then. No sense showing any =
caution now, before that happens, right?
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de =
<mailto:levinius@gmx.de>> wrote:
> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>=20
> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based =
on the archive, right here:
> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum =
<http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum>
>=20
> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least =
5000+ messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to =
around 2000.
>=20
> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period. =
Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
> =20
> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it =
really
> enough to warrant a new BG?
>=20
> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be =
someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even =
with only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. =
What can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>=20
> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after =
helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way =
more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" =
group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then =
that workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>=20
> =20
> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a =
question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's why =
we need a BG.
>=20
> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said =
something along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple =
answers, then they know it's not being made up" so there appears to be =
counter arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. I also think that =
multiple different descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a =
student, as it gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also =
have enough people that each one of the four beginners that have =
recently raised their hands could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump =
all the work on one person? If the goal is to help people learn, then =
giving them one-on-one service seems like it would be them most =
efficient system.
>=20
> =20
> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>=20
> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many =
prefer facebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an email =
account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>=20
> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing =
lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or =
something!"
>=20
> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem =
they prefer that format.
> =20
>=20
> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially =
archiving and searching treads.
>=20
> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword =
searching just like we do on the KLI site.=20
>=20
> =20
> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>=20
> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a =
group".
>=20
> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just =
look through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all =
the "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the =
intro message. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the =
list. At least with Facebook you can see every person that is joining =
and they have to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. =
In fact, being the BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send =
a personalized private message to each person as they join.=20
>=20
> =20
> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we =
should
> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>=20
> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that =
newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around", =
someone to trust.
>=20
> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been =
looking for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a =
year (with no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in =
charge" you really mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding =
to certain things". Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and =
there's nothing any of us could do about it.
>=20
> qurgh
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_5A84331D-8DBA-43EE-8932-73C834842DAA
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charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I understand that Facebook is the wave of the =
future, but I=E2=80=99d just like to point out that by using it, one =
tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind. We willingly give lots of =
personal information and links to all the people and groups we choose to =
associate with to a corporation with a reputation for trying really hard =
to be as fascist as possible, backing off only when there=E2=80=99s an =
outcry about something specific that they=E2=80=99ve done that pisses =
off hundreds of thousands of people.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Basically, the corporation has a =
psychopathic attitude =E2=80=94 that we are objects to be manipulated =
for its profit and advantage with minimal concern for our well-being as =
living entities. We provide them with data and with connections. Some =
wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our friends are, =
completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD them that we =
are friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combinations of =
common friends that suggest that we should be associated with one =
another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those associations to improve =
the accuracy of their data.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">If one of the governments where this multinational =
corporation maintains servers decides to persecute political =
undesirables and those associated with them, this data would become =
remarkably valuable, and for a corporation whose only concern is profit, =
value means profit. There are people in China right now who are in =
prison for their political interests because Yahoo decided to hand over =
data the government asked for rather than lose the profitable Chinese =
market. Tell me that Facebook doesn=E2=80=99t consider that a reasonable =
business decision.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So, I don=E2=80=99t much care if mailing lists are considered =
quaint. Do what you like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I use it for one small =
part of my life, for promotional purposes, figuring that dancing is =
harmless enough that being identified as a dancer probably won=E2=80=99t =
land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical Baptists take =
over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky and consider =
withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But hey, it=E2=80=99s popular, and we =
want to be popular, so I guess that trumps any concerns about improving =
the data collected by a heartless, evil, multi-national corporation for =
some future use over which we=E2=80=99ll have no influence at the time. =
That regret is in the future. Maybe we=E2=80=99ll be dead by then. No =
sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?</div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" class=3D"">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 =
schrieb qurgh lungqIj:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't<br =
class=3D"">
enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on =
the archive, right here:<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum</a></blockquote><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That's good info. Back =
when the BG was going strong we got at least 5000+ messages. The =
position seems to have died when we dropped down to around =
2000.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'd be =
interested to see membership levels over the same time period. =
Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of =
data.</div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">in activity due to qunnoQ and the new =
words has been great, is it really<br class=3D"">
enough to warrant a new BG?<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be =
someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even =
with only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. =
What can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of =
"Grammarian" after helping three or four people over a year? I (and =
others) have helped way more people than that for the past two years in =
the "Learn Klingon" group. If we are going to tie a title to dealing =
with a workload, then that workload needs to be equal for each =
participant in my opinion.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">We've seen recently what should be =
avoided by a BG: beginners ask a question and either get ten answers at =
once, or none at all. That's why we need a BG.</blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Except that when I =
mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said something along the =
lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers, then they know =
it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter arguments to this =
part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple different =
descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a student, as it =
gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also have enough people =
that each one of the four beginners that have recently raised their =
hands could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all the work on one =
person? If the goal is to help people learn, then giving them one-on-one =
service seems like it would be them most efficient system.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""> </div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">People just don't use mailing lists the =
way they used to<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many =
prefer facebook which they can use o their phone, instead of an =
email account you need to log in or use a special software on your =
computer.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here's what a new student looking to =
learn Klingon said about mailing lists: "Wow, a mailing list - =
makes me feel like using Windows 95 or something!"</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also we just had someone =
ask for the Facebook group as it would seem they prefer that =
format.</div><div class=3D""> <br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br class=3D"">
Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially =
archiving and searching treads.</blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Facebook groups have both archiving and =
searching. They do keyword searching just like we do on the KLI =
site. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Facebook group has over 900 members and =
adds more weekly).<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a =
group".</blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">That argument was true for this list for many many many =
years. Just look through the archives for all the spam. Also look =
through it for all the "How do I get off this list?" messages from =
people not reading the intro message. We also had to deal with people =
subscribing others to the list. At least with Facebook you can see every =
person that is joining and they have to be approved, and spam is quick =
and easy to deal with. In fact, being the BG might be easier on =
Facebook, since they could send a personalized private message to each =
person as they join. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">While the BG role has been very important =
in the past, perhaps we should<br class=3D"">
look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.<br class=3D"">=
</blockquote>
<br class=3D""></span>
I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that =
newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around", =
someone to trust.</blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've =
been looking for someone to take on the running on this email list for =
over a year (with no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in =
charge" you really mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding =
to certain things". Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and =
there's nothing any of us could do about it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">qurgh</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""> </div></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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