[102099] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Concerning the purpose clauses
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 9 15:04:16 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 15:03:58 -0500
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CALPi+eSqrnFe2Bh=S15LK6-8yg9HXTAreht-C_UemdVWOrzFnw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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This is complex, poetic, and lacks punctuation. Given that, I have to =
see if it looks like it could be interpreted following the rules of =
grammar that have been presented to us, and I see a way to interpret it =
with the two {-meH} clauses preceding the main verb {vup}:
"May this river purify this very-ashamed heart. May qotar pity his =
spirit in order that molor may =E2=80=A6 "
Okay, there=E2=80=99s a verb {yay=E2=80=99} that doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
appropriate here, so I=E2=80=99m not suspecting a misspelling by =
omitting the glottal stop, and there=E2=80=99s a noun {yay}, which =
can=E2=80=99t take a verb suffix {-meH}, so SOMEBODY either made a =
mistake here, or there=E2=80=99s canon vocabulary I haven=E2=80=99t =
found yet.
Anyway, to continue the translation, I=E2=80=99ll restart that second =
sentence:
"May qotar pity his spirit in order that molor may [problem verb] that =
if one is disloyal; thus one is silly, and in order that molor may act =
honorably. He was weak, but this Klingon has died honorably.=E2=80=9D
It=E2=80=99s ugly the way they=E2=80=99ve used {vaj} as if it were a =
conjunction, but if I put a period in front of it, like I usually can, =
the {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} stops making sense, unless it refers to =
multiple sentences. In conversation, sometimes it does, like one person =
says a bunch of things and the other says, {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vIlaj}, =
meaning =E2=80=9CI accept all that you have said.=E2=80=9D
Still, this is not Klingon spoken in a conversational manner. It=E2=80=99s=
poetic. Grammatical rules (and apparently some vocabulary) get looser =
in poems. This is why I don=E2=80=99t write Klingon poetry. tlhonDu=E2=80=99=
ghaj ghIchwIj. tlhonmey Hutlh.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 9, 2015, at 2:17 PM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh@wizage.net> wrote:
>=20
> This section?
>=20
> tIqDu'vam tuHqu'
> Say'moHchu'jaj
> bIQtIqvam
> matlhHa'lu'chugh vaj Doghlu'
> 'e' yaymeH molor
> 'ej batlh vangchoHmeH molor
> qa'Daj vupjaj qotar
> puj ghaH
> 'ach batlh Heghpu' tlhInganvam
>=20
>=20
> qurgh
>=20
> On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller =
<esperantist@gmail.com <mailto:esperantist@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Thanks, kechpaja. You're right, of course! I should have checked my =
examples again.
>=20
> Now if I only had my copy of the paq'batlh and could have a look at =
the purpose clause(s) on page 173. My notes say that there is one where =
it's sentence-final. Maybe a misanalysis, though.
>=20
> - Andr=C3=A9
>=20
> 2015-11-09 19:48 GMT+01:00 <kechpaja@comcast.net =
<mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net>>:
> > On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:27, Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller =
<esperantist@gmail.com <mailto:esperantist@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > A real-life ad hoc example for b) is:
> > [tlhIngan Hol luHaDmeH HaDwI'pu'lI'], ['ampaS 'elnIS ghojmoHwI'].
> > =3D "The teach must enter the academy, so that his students may =
study Klingon.
>=20
> Since we're trying to help out a beginner, I feel like I should point =
out that there is a (minor) error in that example: "his students" or =
"her students" would be <HaDwI'pu'Daj>, rather than <HaDwI'pu'lI'>, =
which means "your students".
>=20
> - kechpaja -
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This is complex, poetic, and lacks =
punctuation. Given that, I have to see if it looks like it could be =
interpreted following the rules of grammar that have been presented to =
us, and I see a way to interpret it with the two {-meH} clauses =
preceding the main verb {vup}:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">"May this river purify this =
very-ashamed heart. May qotar pity his spirit in order that molor may =
=E2=80=A6 "</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Okay, there=E2=80=99s a verb {yay=E2=80=99} that doesn=E2=80=99=
t seem appropriate here, so I=E2=80=99m not suspecting a misspelling by =
omitting the glottal stop, and there=E2=80=99s a noun {yay}, which =
can=E2=80=99t take a verb suffix {-meH}, so SOMEBODY either made a =
mistake here, or there=E2=80=99s canon vocabulary I haven=E2=80=99t =
found yet.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Anyway, to continue the translation, I=E2=80=99ll restart =
that second sentence:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">"May qotar pity his spirit in order that molor may [problem =
verb] that if one is disloyal; thus one is silly, and in order that =
molor may act honorably. He was weak, but this Klingon has died =
honorably.=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s ugly the way they=E2=80=99ve used {vaj} as if it =
were a conjunction, but if I put a period in front of it, like I usually =
can, the {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99} stops making sense, unless it refers to =
multiple sentences. In conversation, sometimes it does, like one person =
says a bunch of things and the other says, {=E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vIlaj}, =
meaning =E2=80=9CI accept all that you have said.=E2=80=9D</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Still, this is not =
Klingon spoken in a conversational manner. It=E2=80=99s poetic. =
Grammatical rules (and apparently some vocabulary) get looser in poems. =
This is why I don=E2=80=99t write Klingon poetry. tlhonDu=E2=80=99 ghaj =
ghIchwIj. tlhonmey Hutlh.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 9, 2015, at 2:17 PM, qurgh lungqIj <<a =
href=3D"mailto:qurgh@wizage.net" class=3D"">qurgh@wizage.net</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">This section?<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">tIqDu'vam tuHqu'</div><div =
class=3D""> Say'moHchu'jaj</div><div class=3D""> =
bIQtIqvam</div><div class=3D"">matlhHa'lu'chugh vaj =
Doghlu'</div><div class=3D""> 'e' yaymeH molor</div><div =
class=3D""> 'ej batlh vangchoHmeH molor</div><div =
class=3D"">qa'Daj vupjaj qotar</div><div class=3D""> puj =
ghaH</div><div class=3D""> 'ach batlh Heghpu' =
tlhInganvam</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra">qurgh</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 2:09 PM, =
Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:esperantist@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">esperantist@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Thanks, kechpaja. You're right, of course! I =
should have checked my examples again.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Now if I only had my copy of the =
paq'batlh and could have a look at the purpose clause(s) on page 173. My =
notes say that there is one where it's sentence-final. Maybe a =
misanalysis, though.<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font=
color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>- =
Andr=C3=A9<br class=3D""></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-11-09 19:48 GMT+01:00 <span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:kechpaja@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">kechpaja@comcast.net</a>></span>:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">> On Nov 9, 2015, at 12:27, =
Andr=C3=A9 M=C3=BCller <<a href=3D"mailto:esperantist@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">esperantist@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br =
class=3D"">
> A real-life ad hoc example for b) is:<br class=3D"">
> [tlhIngan Hol luHaDmeH HaDwI'pu'lI'], ['ampaS 'elnIS =
ghojmoHwI'].<br class=3D"">
> =3D "The teach must enter the academy, so that his students may =
study Klingon.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</span>Since we're trying to help out a beginner, I feel like I should =
point out that there is a (minor) error in that example: "his students" =
or "her students" would be <HaDwI'pu'Daj>, rather than =
<HaDwI'pu'lI'>, which means "your students".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
- kechpaja -<br class=3D"">
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