[101831] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Piraha
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Mon Nov 2 15:33:58 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:33:40 -0500
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmPctM0C=9Y5rt5TJYr8Jtd-T8PsN4T3MeLc4NgUs=qjbg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
--===============7705040447247232102==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_7EA1047F-002D-4F00-B32E-8873BB50D8A8"
--Apple-Mail=_7EA1047F-002D-4F00-B32E-8873BB50D8A8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=utf-8
I just want to make it clear to the newcomers here that {-mo=E2=80=99}, =
in this example, is a verb suffix and it always is connected to the =
verb. It cannot float to the end of the dependent clause, as this =
punctuation suggests. If the example were =E2=80=9Cbecause perhaps soon =
Kruge will die honorably=E2=80=9D, we would not say <<chaq tugh Hegh =
Qugh>>mo=E2=80=99. We=E2=80=99d say {chaq tugh Heghmo=E2=80=99 Qugh}.
The type 9 verb suffix gives what would otherwise be its own sentence a =
grammatical function in a larger sentence with a single main verb. In =
this case, there are three dependent clauses with one main verb. The =
main sentence is =E2=80=9CThey celebrate.=E2=80=9D When do they =
celebrate? When Kahless stops that he speaks; when he stops speaking. =
Why do they celebrate? Because perhaps soon they may die honorably =
and/or because perhaps soon they may conquer (someone).
I see what you are trying to explain here, but I=E2=80=99m concerned =
that this style of punctuation may lead newcomers to expect that the =
Type 9 verb suffix somehow floats to the last word in the phrase, =
whether it=E2=80=99s a verb or not, and this is not the case.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 12:05 PM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 2 November 2015 at 17:04, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"
>>=20
>> i'm sorry to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just
>> saw,translates to <<due to,because of>>.
>> why is then the translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not =
<<soon he
>> dies because of honor>> ?
>=20
> The cutting and pasting in the thread has distorted the alignment of
> the translation here.
>=20
> Putting things back into context, the sentence fragment you're reading
> comes from the following (where the fragment is marked with
> "((...))"):
>=20
> {jatlh =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 mevDI=E2=80=99 qeylIS, lop
> chaq ((tugh batlh Hegh))mo=E2=80=99
> =E2=80=98ej chaq tugh charghmo=E2=80=99}
>=20
> "After Kahless's words, they celebrate,
> For ((they may soon die with honor))!
> For they may soon be victorious!"
>=20
> The {-mo'} is not part of the meaning "they may soon die with honour",
> it's part of {lop... Heghmo'} "celebrate... for they may die" .
>=20
>>> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"
>>=20
>> {reH} always
>> {batlh} honor
>> {Suv} to fight
>> {-taH} continuous
>> {-jaj} may
>> {chaH} they
>>=20
>> why <<they always fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting =
with
>> honor>> ?
>=20
> That's what it means. The original translation quoted above was:
> "Let endless battle and honor await them!"
>=20
> One has to be careful when quoting the paq'batlh to quote a complete
> sentence or paragraph, and not just one line, since there is not a 1:1
> correspondence between the order of the lines in English and Klingon.
>=20
> --=20
> De'vID
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--Apple-Mail=_7EA1047F-002D-4F00-B32E-8873BB50D8A8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I just want to make it clear to the newcomers =
here that {-mo=E2=80=99}, in this example, is a verb suffix and it =
always is connected to the verb. It cannot float to the end of the =
dependent clause, as this punctuation suggests. If the example were =
=E2=80=9Cbecause perhaps soon Kruge will die honorably=E2=80=9D, we =
would not say <<chaq tugh Hegh Qugh>>mo=E2=80=99. We=E2=80=99d=
say {chaq tugh Heghmo=E2=80=99 Qugh}.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The type 9 verb suffix gives what would =
otherwise be its own sentence a grammatical function in a larger =
sentence with a single main verb. In this case, there are three =
dependent clauses with one main verb. The main sentence is =E2=80=9CThey =
celebrate.=E2=80=9D When do they celebrate? When Kahless stops that he =
speaks; when he stops speaking. Why do they celebrate? Because perhaps =
soon they may die honorably and/or because perhaps soon they may conquer =
(someone).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
see what you are trying to explain here, but I=E2=80=99m concerned that =
this style of punctuation may lead newcomers to expect that the Type 9 =
verb suffix somehow floats to the last word in the phrase, whether =
it=E2=80=99s a verb or not, and this is not the case.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 2, 2015, at 12:05 PM, De'vID <<a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">On 2 November 2015 =
at 17:04, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">{tugh =
batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">i'm sorry to lead this discussion =
of track,but {-mo'} as i just<br class=3D"">saw,translates to =
<<due to,because of>>.<br class=3D"">why is then the =
translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon =
he<br class=3D"">dies because of honor>> ?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The cutting and pasting in the =
thread has distorted the alignment of<br class=3D"">the translation =
here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Putting things back into context, the =
sentence fragment you're reading<br class=3D"">comes from the following =
(where the fragment is marked with<br class=3D"">"((...))"):<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">{jatlh =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 mevDI=E2=80=99 =
qeylIS, lop<br class=3D"">chaq ((tugh batlh Hegh))mo=E2=80=99<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=98ej chaq tugh charghmo=E2=80=99}<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">"After Kahless's words, they celebrate,<br class=3D"">For =
((they may soon die with honor))!<br class=3D"">For they may soon be =
victorious!"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The {-mo'} is not part of the =
meaning "they may soon die with honour",<br class=3D"">it's part of =
{lop... Heghmo'} "celebrate... for they may die" .<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">{reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">{reH} always<br class=3D"">{batlh} =
honor<br class=3D"">{Suv} to fight<br class=3D"">{-taH} continuous<br =
class=3D"">{-jaj} may<br class=3D"">{chaH} they<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">why <<they always fight with honor>> and not =
<<may they keep fighting with<br class=3D"">honor>> ?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That's what it means. The =
original translation quoted above was:<br class=3D"">"Let endless battle =
and honor await them!"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">One has to be =
careful when quoting the paq'batlh to quote a complete<br =
class=3D"">sentence or paragraph, and not just one line, since there is =
not a 1:1<br class=3D"">correspondence between the order of the lines in =
English and Klingon.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- <br =
class=3D"">De'vID<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
--Apple-Mail=_7EA1047F-002D-4F00-B32E-8873BB50D8A8--
--===============7705040447247232102==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
--===============7705040447247232102==--
