[101824] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Piraha
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (nIqolay Q)
Mon Nov 2 12:04:05 2015
In-Reply-To: <A93E6743-784F-4103-BCA6-3CEB671AA48B@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:03:49 -0500
From: nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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According to KGT, the variant word order with {-jaj} is used only when
you're making a toast. I assume regular word order is fine with {-jaj} if
you're not hoisting up a glass of bloodwine in front of a wedding
celebration or whatever.
On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Oh, and you are totally right that {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} sort of
> means =E2=80=9CMay they keep fighting with honor.=E2=80=9D The reason I=
=E2=80=99m a little
> squeamish on this is that the original follows NORMAL Klingon grammar and
> puts {-jaj} on the verb, but when we were introduced to {-jaj}, due to a
> likely blunder on Okrand=E2=80=99s part, sentences built on verbs with {-=
jaj} added
> have an exceptional word order, placing all the nouns before the verb, so
> technically {chaH} is misplaced.
>
> I think consensus is sort of kinda pushing for it being okay to use norma=
l
> word order with {-jaj}, with a vague, wittering explanation about the
> difference between ancient, oft-repeated blessings vs. modern expressions
> of wishfulness, but I=E2=80=99m not sure we ever got The Word from The Ma=
n on this
> one. Also, though I know that the traditional blessing using {-jaj} puts
> the subject before the verb, I=E2=80=99m less sure where a direct object =
would go
> (before or after the subject).
>
> Also, note that I=E2=80=99m battling with a stupid spell-checker that kee=
ps
> changing {qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99} to either =E2=80=9Ccep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=
=99=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ceep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D, and {batlh} becom=
es
> =E2=80=9Cbath=E2=80=9D. So, while spelling has never really been my stron=
g suit, when
> writing in Klingon, the computer is at fault more often than I am.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2015, at 11:04 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"
>
> i'm sorry to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just
> saw,translates to <<due to,because of>>.
> why is then the translation <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon he
> dies because of honor>> ?
>
>
> > {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "they always fight with honor"
>
> {reH} always
> {batlh} honor
> {Suv} to fight
> {-taH} continuous
> {-jaj} may
> {chaH} they
>
> why <<they always fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting wit=
h
> honor>> ?
>
> qunnoQ HoD
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure what the initial question was, but these examples do not
>> show a real answer, in my opinion. All of the multiple adverbials are
>> actually time stamps plus adverb, so not really "TWO" adverbs.
>> The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:
>>
>> {tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}
>> "soon he dies with honor"
>>
>> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}
>> "they always fight with honor"
>>
>> I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I see
>> more as a conjunction:
>>
>> > Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99
>>
>>> vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99
>>> cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99
>>>
>>
>> Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lieven L. Litaer
>> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
>> Grammarian of the KLI
>> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
>> http://www.klingonwiki.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">According to KGT, the variant word order with {-jaj} is us=
ed only when you're making a toast. I assume regular word order is fine=
with {-jaj} if you're not hoisting up a glass of bloodwine in front of=
a wedding celebration or whatever.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Will Martin <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Oh, and you are tot=
ally right that {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} sort of means =E2=80=9CMay they =
keep fighting with honor.=E2=80=9D The reason I=E2=80=99m a little squeamis=
h on this is that the original follows NORMAL Klingon grammar and puts {-ja=
j} on the verb, but when we were introduced to {-jaj}, due to a likely blun=
der on Okrand=E2=80=99s part, sentences built on verbs with {-jaj} added ha=
ve an exceptional word order, placing all the nouns before the verb, so tec=
hnically {chaH} is misplaced.</div><div><br></div><div>I think consensus is=
sort of kinda pushing for it being okay to use normal word order with {-ja=
j}, with a vague, wittering explanation about the difference between ancien=
t, oft-repeated blessings vs. modern expressions of wishfulness, but I=E2=
=80=99m not sure we ever got The Word from The Man on this one. Also, thoug=
h I know that the traditional blessing using {-jaj} puts the subject before=
the verb, I=E2=80=99m less sure where a direct object would go (before or =
after the subject).</div><div><br></div><div>Also, note that I=E2=80=99m ba=
ttling with a stupid spell-checker that keeps changing {qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=
=99} to either =E2=80=9Ccep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ceep=E2=
=80=99a=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D, and {batlh} becomes =E2=80=9Cbath=E2=80=9D. So, =
while spelling has never really been my strong suit, when writing in Klingo=
n, the computer is at fault more often than I am.</div><span class=3D""><br=
><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div>On Nov 2, 2=
015, at 11:04 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></span><div><div cla=
ss=3D"h5"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>> {tugh batlh H=
eghmo=E2=80=99} "soon he dies with honor"<br><br></div>i'm so=
rry to lead this discussion of track,but {-mo'} as i just saw,translate=
s to <<due to,because of>>. <br></div>why is then the translati=
on <<soon he dies with honor>> and not <<soon he dies bec=
ause of honor>> ?<br><br><br>> {reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH} "th=
ey always fight with honor"<br><br></div>{reH} always<br></div>{batlh}=
honor<br></div><div>{Suv} to fight<br></div><div>{-taH} continuous<br></di=
v><div>{-jaj} may<br></div><div>{chaH} they<br><br></div><div>why <<t=
hey always fight with honor>> and not <<may they keep fighting =
with honor>> ?<br><br></div><div>qunnoQ HoD<br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 5:47=
PM, Lieven <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=
=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">I'm not sure what the initial question was, but these examples=
do not show a real answer, in my opinion. All of the multiple adverbials a=
re actually time stamps plus adverb, so not really "TWO" adverbs.=
<br>
The only rule we can see here, is that time stamps come first:<br>
<br>
{tugh batlh Heghmo=E2=80=99}<br>
"soon he dies with honor"<br>
<br>
{reH batlh SuvtaHjaj chaH}<br>
"they always fight with honor"<br>
<br>
I don't see two adverbials here, unless you see vaj as one, which I see=
more as a conjunction:<span><br>
<br>
> Hay=E2=80=99chu=E2=80=99 luneHqu=E2=80=99<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
vaj pe=E2=80=99vIl joqqu=E2=80=99<br>
cha=E2=80=99 tlhIngan tIqDu=E2=80=99<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Any examples with true aderbials or adverbs of the same type??<div><div><br=
>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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