[101793] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Piraha
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Sun Nov 1 18:59:01 2015
In-Reply-To: <5636747B.80603@gmx.de>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 00:58:43 +0100
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I think what is meant with "main verb" is actually "finite verb", which in
the case of Klingon means, a verb in a main clause that governs the subject
(and potential object). In the sentence you gave, {maSachnIS} is the finite
verb, and {mataHmeH} is a kind of subclause. You could call it converb or
dependent verb, too.
But I agree, two adverbs in a sentence, I'd accept that too.
Actually, we only need one possible example of a run-on sentence to show
that Klingon potentially allows for infinite sentences (which I strongly
believe it can), for example this one:
'IH vIghro'mey 'e' vIQub 'e' Qub martaq 'e' Qub wo'rIv 'e' [...] 'e' Qub
qeylIS 'e' Qub.
=3D He thinks that Kahless things that [...] that Worf thinks that Martok
thinks that I think that cats are beautiful.
But! If one can argue that Pirah=C3=A3 has no recursion, one could use the =
same
method to show that this particular Klingon sentence isn't one sentence but
several. Dan Everett would probably have analysed the sentence above this
way:
'IH vIghro'mey. 'e' vIQub.'e' Qub martaq. 'e' Qub wo'rIv. [...]
=3D Cats are beautiful. <-- I think that. <-- Martok thinks that. <-- Worf
thinks that. [...]
The equivalent of Pirah=C3=A3 reported speech works in a very similar way (=
it
was quite a while since I read the grammar of the language, so I don't
remember precisely).
But what we can do in Klingon is come up with a potentially endless string
of dependent clauses, non-finite verbs with Type 9 suffixes, e.g.:
[...] maHeghnISbe'meH matlhuHlaHmeH muD lamHa'choHmeH jan Dachu'rupmeH
qaghuHmoHmeH qarI'.
=3D I hailed you in order to warn you so that you are prepared to activate
the device so that it may clean the atmosphere so we can breathe so that we
don't have to die [...]
vaj... veHmey HutlhlaH tlhIngan Hol mu'tlheghmey 'e' tobba' ghantoH
mu'tlheghvam'e'.
- Andr=C3=A9
2015-11-01 21:22 GMT+01:00 Lieven <levinius@gmx.de>:
> On 11/1/2015 5:49 AM, qunnoQ HoD wrote:
>>
>>> 1. a basic rule in Klingon is one main verb per sentence
>>>
>>
> {mataHmeH maSachnIS} "we must expand to survive", two verbs in one
> sentence.
>
> 2. in Klingon we can't apply multiple adverbs to a single verb
>>>
>>
> I'm not sure what is considered an adverb, but I think I'd accept {batlh
> nom Soppu'} "He ate quickly with honor"
>
> 4. in Klingon we tend to think we can=E2=80=99t use two adverbs for a sin=
gle
>>>
>> [...]
>
>> We don't have any evidence I can think of that lets us use two
>> adjectival verbs on a single noun.
>>
>
> For the record, we have the somehow poetic and controversial phrase in th=
e
> warriors anthem {yoHbogh matlhbogh je SuvwI'}
>
> I prefer to make BOTH qualities into relative clauses, for symmetry.
>> E.g., {HoSbogh tlhIngan 'ej 'IHbogh} "strong and beautiful Klingon."
>>
>
> I prefer this too.
>
>
> --
> Lieven L. Litaer
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh
> Grammarian of the KLI
> http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
> http://www.klingonwiki.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I think what is meant w=
ith "main verb" is actually "finite verb", which in the=
case of Klingon means, a verb in a main clause that governs the subject (a=
nd potential object). In the sentence you gave, {maSachnIS} is the finite v=
erb, and {mataHmeH} is a kind of subclause. You could call it converb or de=
pendent verb, too.<br><br></div>But I agree, two adverbs in a sentence, I&#=
39;d accept that too.<br><br></div>Actually, we only need one possible exam=
ple of a run-on sentence to show that Klingon potentially allows for infini=
te sentences (which I strongly believe it can), for example this one:<br><b=
r></div>'IH vIghro'mey 'e' vIQub 'e' Qub martaq =
9;e' Qub wo'rIv 'e' [...] 'e' Qub qeylIS 'e'=
; Qub.<br></div>=3D He thinks that Kahless things that [...] that Worf thin=
ks that Martok thinks that I think that cats are beautiful.<br><br></div>Bu=
t! If one can argue that Pirah=C3=A3 has no recursion, one could use the sa=
me method to show that this particular Klingon sentence isn't one sente=
nce but several. Dan Everett would probably have analysed the sentence abov=
e this way:<br><br></div>'IH vIghro'mey. 'e' vIQub.'e&#=
39; Qub martaq. 'e' Qub wo'rIv. [...]<br></div>=3D Cats are bea=
utiful. <-- I think that. <-- Martok thinks that. <-- Worf thinks =
that. [...]<br><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br></div><div>The e=
quivalent of Pirah=C3=A3 reported speech works in a very similar way (it wa=
s quite a while since I read the grammar of the language, so I don't re=
member precisely).<br><br></div><div>But what we can do in Klingon is come =
up with a potentially endless string of dependent clauses, non-finite verbs=
with Type 9 suffixes, e.g.:<br><br></div><div>[...] maHeghnISbe'meH ma=
tlhuHlaHmeH muD lamHa'choHmeH jan Dachu'rupmeH qaghuHmoHmeH qarI=
9;.<br></div><div>=3D I hailed you in order to warn you so that you are pre=
pared to activate the device so that it may clean the atmosphere so we can =
breathe so that we don't have to die [...]<br><br></div><div>vaj... veH=
mey HutlhlaH tlhIngan Hol mu'tlheghmey 'e' tobba' ghantoH m=
u'tlheghvam'e'. <br></div><div><br></div><div>- Andr=C3=A9<br><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-11-01 21:22 GMT+01:00 Lieven <span=
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">levin=
ius@gmx.de</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
On 11/1/2015 5:49 AM, qunnoQ HoD wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
1. a basic rule in Klingon is one main verb per sentence<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
{mataHmeH maSachnIS} "we must expand to survive", two verbs in on=
e sentence.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
2. in Klingon we can't apply multiple adverbs to a single verb<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
<br>
I'm not sure what is considered an adverb, but I think I'd accept {=
batlh nom Soppu'} "He ate quickly with honor"<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
4. in Klingon we tend to think we can=E2=80=99t use two adverbs for a singl=
e<br>
</blockquote></blockquote>
[...]<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
We don't have any evidence I can think of that lets us use two<br>
adjectival verbs on a single noun.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
For the record, we have the somehow poetic and controversial phrase in the =
warriors anthem {yoHbogh matlhbogh je SuvwI'}<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I prefer to make BOTH qualities into relative clauses, for symmetry.<br>
E.g., {HoSbogh tlhIngan 'ej 'IHbogh} "strong and beautiful Kli=
ngon."<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
I prefer this too.<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Lieven L. Litaer<br>
aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
Grammarian of the KLI<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://www.klingonwiki.net</a><br>
<br>
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org</a><br>
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rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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