[101650] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Things missing
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (David Holt)
Thu Oct 29 14:15:45 2015
From: David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com>
To: TlhIngan Hol Mailing List <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:15:27 +0000
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cKxjguU9yXM4uieoakL=s6YAV7WaDHG3SOwRm1m-ZM5pw@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Let's keep this list about the language and not about personalities. Perha=
ps the two of you can work out your personally differences in private email=
. I'll try not to speak too much on behalf of lojmIt tI'wI' nuv because I =
don't necessarily agree with how he responded to you and he is perfectly ca=
pable of defending himself. But I have to admit that, to some extent, I ca=
n see what led him to react that way.
I really enjoy that you have brought some new energy into the discussions a=
nd I look forward to your increasing ability with the language. I am going=
to discourage you a bit from these types of discussions, but please unders=
tand that I don't want you to give up on them, but just to put them aside f=
or a little while. I think you will be much better equipped to discuss the=
m more knowledgeably once you have studied Klingon for longer and become sk=
illed at speaking (or at least writing) it. For now, I would much rather s=
ee your efforts and energies going into learning how to use the tools we ha=
ve rather than imaging tools that could be in some theoretical future. Whe=
n it seems like a tool is missing, ask the experienced speakers what they d=
o about it, rather than tell them that their workshop is broken.
> > It=92s a little disrespectful of all that support to express excessive =
demands that you apparently believe are owed to you because you are so grac=
ious as to invest your valuable time and skill toward learning it.
>
> you know,as english in not my native language i always make sure that aft=
er i write an email,i read it again so as to make sure that i have not made=
any mistakes. Surely some typographic errors almost always
>are missed,but i believe that i would see whether i wrote something "disre=
spectful". You suggest that i'm arrogant,determined to be "the big boss". S=
eriously ? After all i wrote this is your conclusion ? What i
> wrote is my opinion about what is missing from the Klingon language,for i=
t to be made complete. It was my opinion,and i believe mailing lists/forums=
etc. exist for the exchange of ideas,between people who
>have similar interests.
It's not that the language you are using is disrespectful. I didn't realiz=
e that English was not your first language, but I think that's a testament =
to how well you use the language. It feels a little like the request itsel=
f, no matter how politely put nor well intentioned, is a little disrespectf=
ul.
> > Don=92t disrespect that opportunity by demanding that all politics with=
in the group change to accommodate your new idea of how things ought to be =
done.
>
> apparently you believe that you own Klingon language,and that you have th=
e authority to pass judgement on anyone who would say that there are things=
missing ; that anyone new who refuses to "shut up"
> and say how wonderful everything is must be characterized in the worst wa=
y,and be black-listed.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv knows that he doesn't own the language and I'm sure he's =
admit that he makes mistakes in the language. I think what we'd like you t=
o understand is that many of the issues that you are bringing up become muc=
h clearer once you have years of experience. It sounds, even to me, a litt=
le like you are saying, "I know I'm very new to this and I know you guys ha=
ve decades of experience, but here are the problems that I see in your thin=
g." These are not new suggestions, they have been talked over many times b=
y many people, both new to the language and experienced speakers. Dismissi=
ng your concerns outright is not the appropriate response, but the question=
s you ask show a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems that can only=
be corrected by learning and using the language over many years. The answ=
ers are not simple and require you to have a much deeper grasp of the langu=
age than you do right now. It feels like you are assuming that we have eit=
her failed to recognize the problems or failed to address them and that fee=
ls a little insulting to those of us that have worked hard on the language =
for decades. We would love to help you understand all the nuances and subt=
itles of the challenges in the Klingon language, but those are best saved f=
or once you have a firm grasp on the basics and are able to actually commun=
icate in the language. And there are plenty of clear fundamentals for you =
to work on, so your time is better spent on those for now.
> > Are you prepared to spend money to get the Klingon language fixed? Or =
are you just expecting a bunch of volunteers to do this for you?
>
> did i write that money should be spent ? did i write that i do not recogn=
ize that there are practical problems ? I wrote what would be nice to exist=
/happen. I believe that from my first post i wrote how i
> realize that there are copyright issues,which i understand and respect.
He seems to be trying to extend your metaphor to show you what he feels you=
are missing about this scenario. I think we should take this scenario in =
a different direction. It's not a question of having the ligament fixed or=
giving up on having a meaningful life. Plenty of people live full and hap=
py lives without being able to walk. You wouldn't walk up to one of them a=
nd say, "Why don't you have it fixed? Why wouldn't you prefer to be perfec=
t?" But the whole metaphor is bad because walking is a pretty significant =
requirement in our society. The problems Klingon has are not nearly as sig=
nificant as that. It's more like plastic surgery. If after knowing someon=
e for a very short time, you suddenly said, "Why don't you have your nose s=
traightened? And your tummy bulge cut out? And your chin tucked? And you=
r boobs reduced?" It's insulting and indicates a fundamental misunderstand=
ing of what makes them who they are.
EVERY language has weaknesses when compared to other language (and that als=
o means they have strengths in comparison, as well). It's part of the beau=
ty of language and one of the things I love about Klignon compared to other=
invented languages like Esperanto or Lojban. Those languages are often to=
o perfect - they are boring and uninteresting to me. Klingon has all these=
wonderful ways of expressing things that are just plain fun. I would be s=
o sad if they were "fixed". To me, it's not a question of recognizing the =
logistical problems in fixing the language, but a question of recognizing t=
hat the language is functional and thriving as it is and that the problems =
it has are part of its beauty. If you want "perfect" work on Vulcan. If y=
ou want a language with some endearing flaws and some amazing capabilities =
for functioning even with those flaws, then Klingon is your language.
janSIy
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<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;back=
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<p>Let's keep this list about the language and not about personalities. &nb=
sp;Perhaps the two of you can work out your personally differences in priva=
te email. I'll try not to speak too much on behalf of lojmIt tI'wI' n=
uv because I don't necessarily agree with
how he responded to you and he is perfectly capable of defending himself. =
But I have to admit that, to some extent, I can see what led him to r=
eact that way.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I really enjoy that you have brought some new energy into the discussion=
s and I look forward to your increasing ability with the language. I =
am going to discourage you a bit from these types of discussions, but pleas=
e understand that I don't want you to
give up on them, but just to put them aside for a little while. I th=
ink you will be much better equipped to discuss them more knowledgeably onc=
e you have studied Klingon for longer and become skilled at speaking (or at=
least writing) it. For now, I would
much rather see your efforts and energies going into learning how to use t=
he tools we have rather than imaging tools that could be in some theoretica=
l future. When it seems like a tool is missing, ask the experienced s=
peakers what they do about it, rather
than tell them that their workshop is broken.</p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;"><br>
</span></p>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;">> > It=92s a little disrespectful=
of all that support to express excessive demands that you apparently belie=
ve are owed to you because you are so gracious as to invest your valuable t=
ime and skill toward learning it.</span><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">> <br>
> you know,as english in not my native language i always make sure that =
after i write an email,i read it again so as to make sure that i have not m=
ade any mistakes. Surely some typographic errors almost always</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">>are missed,but i believe that i would see whether i wr=
ote something "disrespectful". You suggest that i'm arrogant,dete=
rmined to be "the big boss". Seriously ? After all i wrote this i=
s your conclusion ? What i</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">> wrote is my opinion about what is missing from the Kl=
ingon language,for it to be made complete. It was my opinion,and i believe =
mailing lists/forums etc. exist for the exchange of ideas,between people wh=
o</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">>have similar interests.<br>
<br>
It's not that the language you are using is disrespectful. I didn't r=
ealize that English was not your first language, but I think that's a testa=
ment to how well you use the language. It feels a little like the req=
uest itself, no matter how politely put nor
well intentioned, is a little disrespectful.<br>
<br>
> > Don=92t disrespect that opportunity by demanding that all politic=
s within the group change to accommodate your new idea of how things ought =
to be done.<br>
> <br>
> apparently you believe that you own Klingon language,and that you have=
the authority to pass judgement on anyone who would say that there are thi=
ngs missing ; that anyone new who refuses to "shut up"</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">> and say how wonderful everything is must be character=
ized in the worst way,and be black-listed.<br>
<br>
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv knows that he doesn't own the language and I'm sure =
he's admit that he makes mistakes in the language. I think what =
we'd like you to understand is that many of the issues that you are br=
inging up become much clearer once you have years of
experience. It sounds, even to me, a little like you are saying, &qu=
ot;I know I'm very new to this and I know you guys have decades of experien=
ce, but here are the problems that I see in your thing." These a=
re not new suggestions, they have been talked over many
times by many people, both new to the language and experienced speakers. &=
nbsp;Dismissing your concerns outright is not the appropriate response, but=
the questions you ask show a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems =
that can only be corrected by learning
and using the language over many years. The answers are not simple a=
nd require you to have a much deeper grasp of the language than you do righ=
t now. It feels like you are assuming that we have either failed to r=
ecognize the problems or failed to address
them and that feels a little insulting to those of us that have worked har=
d on the language for decades. We would love to help you understand a=
ll the nuances and subtitles of the challenges in the Klingon language=
, but those are best saved for once you have
a firm grasp on the basics and are able to actually communicate in the lan=
guage. And there are plenty of clear fundamentals for you to work on,=
so your time is better spent on those for now.<br>
<br>
> > Are you prepared to spend money to get the Klingon language=
fixed? Or are you just expecting a bunch of volunteers to do this for you?=
<br>
> <br>
> did i write that money should be spent ? did i write that i do not rec=
ognize that there are practical problems ? I wrote what would be nice to ex=
ist/happen. I believe that from my first post i wrote how i</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">> realize that there are copyright issues,which i under=
stand and respect.
<br>
<br>
He seems to be trying to extend your metaphor to show you what he feel=
s you are missing about this scenario. I think we should take th=
is scenario in a different direction.<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, A=
rial, Helvetica, sans-serif, 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', NotoCol=
orEmoji, 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Android Emoji', EmojiSymbols; font-size: 16px;=
"> It's
not a question of having the ligament fixed or giving up on having a meani=
ngful life.</span> Plenty of people live full and happy lives without=
being able to walk. You wouldn't walk up to one of them and say, &qu=
ot;Why don't you have it fixed? Why wouldn't you
prefer to be perfect?" But the whole metaphor is bad because wa=
lking is a pretty significant requirement in our society. The problem=
s Klingon has are not nearly as significant as that. It's more like p=
lastic surgery. If after knowing someone for a very
short time, you suddenly said, "Why don't you have your nose straight=
ened? And your tummy bulge cut out? And your chin tucked?  =
;And your boobs reduced?" It's insulting and indicates a fundame=
ntal misunderstanding of what makes them who they are.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">EVERY language has weaknesses when compared to other langu=
age (and that also means they have strengths in comparison, as well).  =
;It's part of the beauty of language and one of the things I love about Kli=
gnon compared to other invented languages
like Esperanto or Lojban. Those languages are often too perfect=
- they are boring and uninteresting to me. Klingon has all these won=
derful ways of expressing things that are just plain fun. I would be =
so sad if they were "fixed". To me, it's not a question
of recognizing the logistical problems in fixing the language, but a quest=
ion of recognizing that the language is functional and thriving as it is an=
d that the problems it has are part of its beauty. If you want "=
perfect" work on Vulcan. If you want a language
with some endearing flaws and some amazing capabilities for functioning ev=
en with those flaws, then Klingon is your language.<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">janSIy</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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