[101640] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Things missing
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Thu Oct 29 12:00:20 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 12:00:04 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cJOcvuhFoVjQHB2C6KQcUcGqB8LQAGi+EEZLWomY5c4xg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Comments in line below.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Oct 29, 2015, at 10:17 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> ..."why do you ask for more canon ?"
>=20
> It is not that i'm asking for more canon. It is that i want/i =
demand/accept nothing less than Klingon to be perfect. Yes,now i'm a =
beginner. But the time will come,when i will be able to write in Klingon =
; when this language will have been made a part of myself,the same way =
that my heart is a part of my body. It will be part of my =
education/skills/abilities and i expect nothing less than for it to be =
complete. To be as whole as possible. To be far more superior than any =
other constructed language. I expect and demand "borg perfection",the =
same way that Klingon will have expected from me =
time/persistence/patience in order for it to become a part of me.
Ask not what the Klingon language can do for you, but ask what you can =
do for the Klingon language.
You make a big deal out of the language becoming part of you. Note that =
it is not the language=E2=80=99s duty to be perfect for you. It is your =
duty to become perfect with the use of the language. This requires some =
work-arounds. That is a place where your creativity and cleverness can =
shine.
This is a community. It already serves you with a Web site, a mailing =
list, an updated lexicon, tutorials and other resources, all provided by =
volunteers. It=E2=80=99s a little disrespectful of all that support to =
express excessive demands that you apparently believe are owed to you =
because you are so gracious as to invest your valuable time and skill =
toward learning it.
Stand in line.
There are a LOT of talented people who have already invested their time =
and skills in this language. You have the opportunity to become one of =
them. Don=E2=80=99t disrespect that opportunity by demanding that all =
politics within the group change to accommodate your new idea of how =
things ought to be done. It=E2=80=99s not all that new or original of an =
idea, and it=E2=80=99s never worked here before. Check out the archives. =
There=E2=80=99s a long history of certain individuals coming into the =
group with this kind of demand.
> "why do you ask for more canon ? after all you can always find "ways =
around" any deficiencies it may have"
>=20
> ..true, but ask yourselves. If you had a torn posterior cruciate =
ligament in your knee,would you be ok with it ? You would be in pain =
from time to time,but surely you could find a "way around" it too. You =
could take meds,use a brace,do physical therapy etc,etc. Why would you =
prefer your knee to be "perfect" ? wouldn't all those "ways around" =
suffice ?
As you age, you learn that certain compromises are simply necessary.
> You would want your knee to be "perfect" not only because you wouldn't =
want to feel pain or activity restrictions. You would want your knee to =
be perfect because it is a part of your body and you want/demand/accept =
nothing else,than for it to be perfect.
You=E2=80=99d probably expect to spend some money to get your knee =
fixed. Are you prepared to spend money to get the Klingon language =
fixed? Or are you just expecting a bunch of volunteers to do this for =
you?
> so,because i love Klingon and because it is becoming/will eventually =
become one of the languages i speak,because it is becoming a part of =
myself i want/demand/accept nothing else than for it to be perfect. Its =
as simple as that.
Thou dost protest too much.
Maybe you=E2=80=99d rather work with some easier language. I=E2=80=99ve =
heard that Malasian is fairly simple. Bahasa manis, manis.
> Second question..
>=20
> who is to decide what should be considered valid ? who should create =
canon ?
Okrand.
...
> If Klingon has inherent deficiencies in grammar/vocabulary,then one =
would be forced to go through all kinds of "linguistic acrobatics" to =
get the desired meaning through. Wouldn't that inevitably lead to =
ambiguity in regard to the meaning he's trying to express ? Why =
shouldn't i think that all these "acrobatics" wouldn't eventually lead =
to a sentence which's meaning could be interpreted differently depending =
on the interpretation of the individual listener ?
Your requirements of Klingon are more demanding than most people require =
of English or any other major, common language. All languages are =
awkward at handling something that is easy and natural in some other =
language. I can say things with very specific, clear, unambiguous =
meaning in Klingon that are awkward to translate into English without =
introducing vagueness or ambiguity. Does that mean that as an English =
speaker, I can demand of the world that English be improved to my =
specifications?
Just a word to the wise:
There are at least three types of beginners here that I=E2=80=99ve =
witnessed over the past few decades. I=E2=80=99m sure there are more, =
but these are common types with frequently repeated outcomes:
1. Those who don=E2=80=99t have a lot of natural talent with the =
language, but compensate for that with persistence and patience. Some of =
these never become advanced speakers, but they do feel that their lives =
are enhanced by the activity of trying. Others do manage to become very =
skilled and earn great respect from the community, as much as any =
naturally talented person here.
2. Those who are shocking in their nearly effortless leap to really =
frightening skill levels, like the two authors of the Klingon =
translation of Hamlet who memorized the entire vocabulary in a few weeks =
and can speak the language faster than anyone can understand without =
significant use of The Amazing Slow-Downer or Audacity. Some are bright =
sparks who do wonderful things and then drift off to other interests, =
leaving us in the dust. Others, like Qov, come back to us and give =
freely of themselves to expand our resources with high quality =
tutorials, original stories and other resources.
3. Those who come into the group like gangsters, determined to be the =
big boss who tells us what we are doing wrong and how we need to do =
things from now on. They generally cause disruption, make the mailing =
list unpleasant enough that a lot of people unsubscribe, and they might =
last a year before leaving in a huff, never to be heard from again.
Don=E2=80=99t be yet another one of the third group. It=E2=80=99s bad =
for community. It=E2=80=99s bad for your own personal growth. Show a =
little more respect for the talent and work of volunteers who have gone =
before you, and those who are still here after years of participation.
Or go away before things get worse for you.
It=E2=80=99s just my personal advice. You don=E2=80=99t have to follow =
it. Just remember it when you decide this isn=E2=80=99t worthwhile =
anymore and you decide to leave us. You were told this would happen.
>=20
> qunnoQ HoD
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:27 PM, SuStel <sustel@trimboli.name =
<mailto:sustel@trimboli.name>> wrote:
> On 10/29/2015 2:16 AM, Tim Stoffel wrote:
> Considering what the Klingon language community has accomplished over
> the years, it would be a shame to think that the end of Marc Okrand
> (which I hope is no time soon!) could be the end of the Klingon
> language.
>=20
> We need a mechanism to keep the language alive.
The Klingon Dictionary with the addendum came out in 1992. We=E2=80=99re =
still here a couple decades later. The mechanisms we are already using =
are apparently working fairly well, and SuStel=E2=80=99s response is =
perfect:
> Such a mechanism can be dreamed up at such time as Okrand leaves us or =
decides not to do Klingon anymore. Why try to impose it now? The =
language won't suddenly evaporate when he's gone.
>=20
> --=20
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>
>=20
The language probably will die within a few decades after Okrand, when =
those of us who know it now die without passing it on to our children, =
but then with the publications out there and the archives wherever they =
go, some future linguists would probably pick it back up on a lark and =
it could become wonderful again.
And maybe the military will decide to use it for coded communication...
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combination.
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol =
<http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Comments in line below.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
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auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 29, 2015, at 10:17 AM, qunnoQ HoD <<a =
href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" class=3D"">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D"">..."why do you ask for more canon =
?"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is not that i'm asking for more =
canon. It is that i want/i demand/accept nothing less than Klingon to be =
perfect. Yes,now i'm a beginner. But the time will come,when i will be =
able to write in Klingon ; when this language will have been made a part =
of myself,the same way that my heart is a part of my body. It will be =
part of my education/skills/abilities and i expect nothing less than for =
it to be complete. To be as whole as possible. To be far more superior =
than any other constructed language. I expect and demand "borg =
perfection",the same way that Klingon will have expected from me =
time/persistence/patience in order for it to become a part of me.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Ask =
not what the Klingon language can do for you, but ask what you can do =
for the Klingon language.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You make a =
big deal out of the language becoming part of you. Note that it is not =
the language=E2=80=99s duty to be perfect for you. It is your duty to =
become perfect with the use of the language. This requires some =
work-arounds. That is a place where your creativity and cleverness can =
shine.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This is a community. It =
already serves you with a Web site, a mailing list, an updated lexicon, =
tutorials and other resources, all provided by volunteers. It=E2=80=99s =
a little disrespectful of all that support to express excessive demands =
that you apparently believe are owed to you because you are so gracious =
as to invest your valuable time and skill toward learning =
it.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Stand in line.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>There are a LOT of talented people who have =
already invested their time and skills in this language. You have the =
opportunity to become one of them. Don=E2=80=99t disrespect that =
opportunity by demanding that all politics within the group change to =
accommodate your new idea of how things ought to be done. It=E2=80=99s =
not all that new or original of an idea, and it=E2=80=99s never worked =
here before. Check out the archives. There=E2=80=99s a long history of =
certain individuals coming into the group with this kind of =
demand.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">"why do you ask for more canon ? =
after all you can always find "ways around" any deficiencies it may =
have"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">..true, but ask yourselves. If you =
had a torn posterior cruciate ligament in your knee,would you be ok with =
it ? You would be in pain from time to time,but surely you could find a =
"way around" it too. You could take meds,use a brace,do physical therapy =
etc,etc. Why would you prefer your knee to be "perfect" ? wouldn't all =
those "ways around" suffice ?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>As =
you age, you learn that certain compromises are simply =
necessary.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">You would want your knee to be =
"perfect" not only because you wouldn't want to feel pain or activity =
restrictions. You would want your knee to be perfect because it is a =
part of your body and you want/demand/accept nothing else,than for it to =
be perfect.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You=E2=80=99d probably expect to spend some money =
to get your knee fixed. Are you prepared to spend money to get the =
Klingon language fixed? Or are you just expecting a bunch of volunteers =
to do this for you?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">so,because i love =
Klingon and because it is becoming/will eventually become one of the =
languages i speak,because it is becoming a part of myself i =
want/demand/accept nothing else than for it to be perfect. Its as simple =
as that.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thou dost protest too much.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Maybe you=E2=80=99d rather work with some easier =
language. I=E2=80=99ve heard that Malasian is fairly simple. Bahasa =
manis, manis.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Second =
question..<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">who is to decide what should be =
considered valid ? who should create canon ?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Okrand.</div><div><br class=3D""></div>...<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">If Klingon has inherent deficiencies in =
grammar/vocabulary,then one would be forced to go through all kinds of =
"linguistic acrobatics" to get the desired meaning through. Wouldn't =
that inevitably lead to ambiguity in regard to the meaning he's trying =
to express ? Why shouldn't i think that all these "acrobatics" wouldn't =
eventually lead to a sentence which's meaning could be interpreted =
differently depending on the interpretation of the individual listener =
?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Your requirements of Klingon are more demanding =
than most people require of English or any other major, common language. =
All languages are awkward at handling something that is easy and natural =
in some other language. I can say things with very specific, clear, =
unambiguous meaning in Klingon that are awkward to translate into =
English without introducing vagueness or ambiguity. Does that mean that =
as an English speaker, I can demand of the world that English be =
improved to my specifications?</div><br class=3D"">Just a word to the =
wise:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>There are at least three types =
of beginners here that I=E2=80=99ve witnessed over the past few decades. =
I=E2=80=99m sure there are more, but these are common types with =
frequently repeated outcomes:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>1. =
Those who don=E2=80=99t have a lot of natural talent with the language, =
but compensate for that with persistence and patience. Some of these =
never become advanced speakers, but they do feel that their lives are =
enhanced by the activity of trying. Others do manage to become very =
skilled and earn great respect from the community, as much as any =
naturally talented person here.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>2. =
Those who are shocking in their nearly effortless leap to really =
frightening skill levels, like the two authors of the Klingon =
translation of Hamlet who memorized the entire vocabulary in a few weeks =
and can speak the language faster than anyone can understand without =
significant use of The Amazing Slow-Downer or Audacity. Some are bright =
sparks who do wonderful things and then drift off to other interests, =
leaving us in the dust. Others, like Qov, come back to us and give =
freely of themselves to expand our resources with high quality =
tutorials, original stories and other resources.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>3. Those who come into the group like gangsters, =
determined to be the big boss who tells us what we are doing wrong and =
how we need to do things from now on. They generally cause disruption, =
make the mailing list unpleasant enough that a lot of people =
unsubscribe, and they might last a year before leaving in a huff, never =
to be heard from again.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Don=E2=80=99t =
be yet another one of the third group. It=E2=80=99s bad for community. =
It=E2=80=99s bad for your own personal growth. Show a little more =
respect for the talent and work of volunteers who have gone before you, =
and those who are still here after years of participation.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Or go away before things get worse for =
you.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=99s just my personal =
advice. You don=E2=80=99t have to follow it. Just remember it when you =
decide this isn=E2=80=99t worthwhile anymore and you decide to leave us. =
You were told this would happen.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">qunnoQ HoD<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 3:27 PM, SuStel <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:sustel@trimboli.name" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">sustel@trimboli.name</a>></span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On =
10/29/2015 2:16 AM, Tim Stoffel wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Considering what the Klingon language community has accomplished over<br =
class=3D"">
the years, it would be a shame to think that the end of Marc Okrand<br =
class=3D"">
(which I hope is no time soon!) could be the end of the Klingon<br =
class=3D"">
language.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
We need a mechanism to keep the language =
alive.</blockquote></span></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><br class=3D""></div><div>The Klingon Dictionary with the addendum came =
out in 1992. We=E2=80=99re still here a couple decades later. The =
mechanisms we are already using are apparently working fairly well, and =
SuStel=E2=80=99s response is perfect:</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Such a mechanism can be dreamed up at such time as Okrand leaves us or =
decides not to do Klingon anymore. Why try to impose it now? The =
language won't suddenly evaporate when he's gone.<span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
SuStel<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://trimboli.name" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://trimboli.name</a></font></span><div =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r class=3D""></div><div>The language probably will die within a few =
decades after Okrand, when those of us who know it now die without =
passing it on to our children, but then with the publications out there =
and the archives wherever they go, some future linguists would probably =
pick it back up on a lark and it could become wonderful =
again.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>And maybe the military will =
decide to use it for coded communication...</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Infinite Diversity in Infinite =
Combination.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br =
class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
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