[101432] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon language known issues
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (qunnoQ HoD)
Tue Oct 20 10:47:58 2015
In-Reply-To: <936679701.2530434.1445268693825.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:47:42 +0300
From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
Cc: TlhIngan Hol Mailing List <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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> they've translated Hamlet !
actually,i had thought of this myself sometime ago. i told myself,if they
have translated Hamlet,Christmas Carol etc,then surely a workaround must
exist for almost every difficulty that may arise. but i think that in order
for someone to find this workaround,some considerable skill in the use of
the language must exist. let alone that the workaround,must be clear and
well understood by any listener of similar skill.
> But Okrand knows about that and is working on it
out of curiosity,when Okrand decides on supplementing Klingon with whatever
it may be lacking (at least as far as grammar is concerned) where will he
post it ? Here ? At the KLI ? A new book ?
As a sidenote to all this,yes i agree that all of the languages,do have
limitations ; i mean in Greek,we have tons of words which do not exist in
other languages. Still when talking in English you can still convey the
desired meaning,as long as you know English well enough. You just need to
describe it in more words.
qunnoQ
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Consider the following three alternate questions:
>
> Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean fo=
r
> example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain handling
> verbs, lack of a momentaneous, semelfactive, and repetitive verb contrast=
s,
> etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which
> would make the translation of a Navajo text into English impossible?
>
> Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean fo=
r
> example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain noun
> classifiers, lack of tense and aspect particles, etc.? Vocabulary aside,
> are there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translatio=
n
> of a Chinese text into English impossible?
>
> Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean fo=
r
> example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain honorific
> forms, lack of a causative suffix, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in
> English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Klingo=
n
> text into English impossible?
>
> ********
>
> Every language has a grammar that emphasizes some contrasts at the expens=
e
> of others, and the lack of a particular contrast is not a deficiency. The
> only way to pack every logically possible contrast into a language is to
> follow the route of Ithkuil and similar attempts to add precision to
> language. Otherwise, a given language will morphologically or lexically
> encode some aspects of semantic space while ignoring others or expressing
> them periphrastically, e.g. adding "again and again" in English to
> emphasize the repetition that is obligatorily conjugated in Navajo as a
> separate aspect.
>
> Klingon marks causatives directly on the verb, where English uses phrases
> like "You made him verb" or "You had him verb" to express the idea of one
> participant in a clause causing the action that another participant takes=
,
> along with the unproductive suffix "-en" on adjectives like "darken" or
> "redden". Klingon may not be able to have a sentence as a subject, but
> English (with traditional grammar) cannot have a sentence without an
> expressed subject, as the pro-drop language Chinese can.
>
> You bring up passive voice, which emphasizes the patient of the verb by
> making the object of the active verb the subject. Klingon has two ways to
> do something similar: using the indefinite subject <-lu'> when the object
> is to be emphasized without mentioning the subject: <torgh HoHlu'> =3D
> "Someone killed Torg", which is close to "Torg was killed." You can also
> explicitly mention a pronominal object or <-'e'>-suffix the object noun t=
o
> topicalize it e.g. <ghaH HoH> =3D "He/she killed **him/her**" or <torgh'e=
'
> HoH ghawran> "Gowron killed **Torg**" which is close to "Torg was killed
> by Gowron". (Note that if you are using the passive voice to create
> suspense until the killer is revealed, Klingon word order does this for y=
ou
> anyway.) None of these constructions are actually in the passive voice bu=
t
> they convey most of the same meaning as the English passive voice does.
>
> Even irrealis meanings are possible but, unless Maltz remembers an
> irrealis adverb, require context or some sort of periphrastic constructio=
n
> like <tlhIngan SoHbe' 'ach SoHchugh bIquv> to be unambiguous. However, as
> Quvar said, the missing components aren't really needed, any more than
> Chinese needs tense.
>
>
> Doug Henning
>
>
>
>
> *SIqral bIQtIQDaqjoqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qem qeylISbIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH-
> paq'batlh, paq'raD 23 =C2=ABHay' chaH=C2=BB*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2015 9:43 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote=
:
>
>
> I've been meaning to ask..
>
> Whenever you download a program,there is usually a section in the
> developer's page where the "known issues" concerning the application are
> described ; bugs,problems etc..
>
> Are there any known issues/limitations in the Klingon language ? I mean
> for example,lack of the ability to translate into Klingon certain
> tenses,lack of a passive voice etc ? Vocabulary aside,are there in Klingo=
n
> grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of an english text
> into Klingon impossible ?
>
> qunnoQ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>> they've translated Hamlet !<b=
r><br></div>actually,i
had thought of this myself sometime ago. i told myself,if they have=20
translated Hamlet,Christmas Carol etc,then surely a workaround must=20
exist for almost every difficulty that may arise. but i think that in=20
order for someone to find this workaround,some considerable skill in the
use of the language must exist. let alone that the workaround,must be=20
clear and well understood by any listener of similar skill.<br><br>> But=
Okrand knows about that and is working on it<br><br></div>out
of curiosity,when Okrand decides on supplementing Klingon with whatever
it may be lacking (at least as far as grammar is concerned) where will=20
he post it ? Here ? At the KLI ? A new book ?<br><br></div>As a sidenote
to all this,yes i agree that all of the languages,do have limitations ;
i mean in Greek,we have tons of words which do not exist in other=20
languages. Still when talking in English you can still convey the=20
desired meaning,as long as you know English well enough. You just need=20
to describe it in more words.<br><br></div>qunnoQ<br><div><div><div><div><d=
iv><div><div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 19, =
2015 at 6:31 PM, Doug Henning <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:liket=
hemagician@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">likethemagician@gmail.com</a>></=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#00=
0;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fo=
nt-size:16px"><div><span></span></div><div></div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
<br></div><div style=3D"display:block"><div style=3D"font-family:times new =
roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px"><div style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
icaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:1=
6px"><div><div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new ro=
man,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">=
<div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new yo=
rk,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div><div=
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif=
;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Consider the=
following three alternate questions:</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);f=
ont-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:=
16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Are there any known iss=
ues/limitations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ab=
ility to translate into English certain handling verbs, lack of a momentane=
ous, semelfactive, and repetitive verb contrasts, etc.? Vocabulary aside, a=
re there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation o=
f a Navajo text into English impossible?</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;backgroun=
d-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-=
size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Are there any know=
n issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of t=
he ability to translate into English certain noun classifiers, lack of=C2=
=A0tense and aspect particles, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English=
grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Chinese text in=
to English impossible?</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:time=
s new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,25=
5,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)=
;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background=
-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Are there any known issues/limitations=
in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability to transl=
ate into English certain honorific forms, lack of a causative suffix, etc.?=
Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which would ma=
ke the translation of a Klingon text into English impossible?</div><div sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new yor=
k,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"=
>********</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,n=
ew york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=
=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-famil=
y:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(=
255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Every language has a grammar that emphasizes some=
contrasts at the expense of others, and the lack of a particular contrast =
is not a deficiency. The only way to pack every logically possible contrast=
into a language is to follow the route of Ithkuil and similar attempts to =
add precision to language. Otherwise, a given language will morphologically=
or lexically encode some aspects of semantic space while ignoring others o=
r expressing them periphrastically, e.g. adding "again and again"=
in English to emphasize the repetition that is obligatorily conjugated in =
Navajo as a separate aspect. </div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Klingon marks causatives direct=
ly on the verb, where English uses phrases like "You made him verb&quo=
t;=C2=A0or "You had him verb" to express the idea of one particip=
ant in a clause causing the action that another participant takes, along wi=
th the unproductive suffix "-en" on adjectives like "darken&=
quot; or "redden". Klingon may not be able to have a sentence as =
a subject, but English (with traditional grammar) cannot have a sentence wi=
thout an expressed=C2=A0subject, as the pro-drop language Chinese can.</div=
><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,=
serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roma=
n,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" di=
r=3D"ltr">You bring up passive voice, which emphasizes the patient of the v=
erb by making the object of the active verb the subject. Klingon has two wa=
ys to do something similar: using the indefinite subject <-lu'> w=
hen the object is to be emphasized without mentioning the subject: <torg=
h HoHlu'>=C2=A0=3D "Someone killed Torg", which is close t=
o "Torg was killed." You can also explicitly mention a pronominal=
object or <-'e'>-suffix the object noun to topicalize it e.g=
. <ghaH HoH> =3D "He/she killed *<em>him/her*</em>" or <=
torgh'e' HoH ghawran> "Gowron killed *<em>Torg*</em>"=
=C2=A0which is close to=C2=A0"Torg was killed by Gowron". (Note t=
hat if you are using the passive voice to create suspense until the killer =
is revealed, Klingon word order does this for you anyway.) None of these co=
nstructions are actually in the passive voice but they convey most of the s=
ame meaning as the English passive voice does. </div><div style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;=
font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr">Even irrealis=
meanings are possible but, unless Maltz remembers an irrealis adverb, requ=
ire context or some sort of periphrastic construction like <tlhIngan SoH=
be' 'ach SoHchugh bIquv> to be unambiguous. However, as Quvar sa=
id, the missing components aren't really needed, any more than Chinese =
needs tense.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:times new roma=
n,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" di=
r=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Doug Henning</div>=
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);line-height:normal;font-family:times new rom=
an,new york,times,serif;font-size:14pt;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><=
br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);line-height:normal;f=
ont-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:14pt;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255)" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"lucida console, sans-serif=
"><strong>SIqral bIQtIQDaq<br clear=3D"none">joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qe=
m qeylIS<br clear=3D"none">bIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH<br clear=3D"none">- paq'=
batlh, paq'raD 23 =C2=ABHay' chaH=C2=BB</strong><br clear=3D"none">=
</font><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:=
times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255)"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fa=
mily:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255)"> <br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px;background-=
color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><=
/div><div> <div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;f=
ont-size:16px"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helv=
etica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div><br clear=3D"non=
e"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> On Monday, October 19, 2015 9:43 AM, q=
unnoQ HoD <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkou=
n@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"> </font> </div> <br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none"> </div></div><div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><div=
dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>I've been meaning to ask..<br clear=3D"none=
"><br clear=3D"none"></div>Whenever you download a program,there is usually=
a section in the developer's page where the "known issues" c=
oncerning the application are described ; bugs,problems etc..<br clear=3D"n=
one"><br clear=3D"none"></div>Are there any known issues/limitations in the=
Klingon language ? I mean for example,lack of the ability to translate int=
o Klingon certain tenses,lack of a passive voice etc ? Vocabulary aside,are=
there in Klingon grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of =
an english text into Klingon impossible ?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div>qunnoQ<br clear=3D"none"></div></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></d=
iv><span class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br clea=
r=3D"none">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"mailto:Tl=
hingan-hol@kli.org" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank">Tlhin=
gan-hol@kli.org</a><br clear=3D"none"><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank">=
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br clear=3D"none"><br=
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></span></div></div></div> </div> </div>=
</div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div> </div></div=
><br>_______________________________________________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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