[101426] in tlhIngan-Hol
[Tlhingan-hol] Klingon language known issues
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Doug Henning)
Mon Oct 19 11:34:31 2015
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:31:33 +0000 (UTC)
From: Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
To: TlhIngan Hol Mailing List <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <1164407914.2642953.1445268196404.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Doug Henning <likethemagician@gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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=C2=A0
Consider the following three alternate questions:
Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for =
example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain handling ver=
bs, lack of a momentaneous, semelfactive, and repetitive verb contrasts, et=
c.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which would=
make the translation of a Navajo text into English impossible?
Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for =
example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain noun classif=
iers, lack of=C2=A0tense and aspect particles, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are =
there in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a=
Chinese text into English impossible?
Are there any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for =
example, lack of the ability to translate into English certain honorific fo=
rms, lack of a causative suffix, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in Engli=
sh grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Klingon text =
into English impossible?
********
Every language has a grammar that emphasizes some contrasts at the expense =
of others, and the lack of a particular contrast is not a deficiency. The o=
nly way to pack every logically possible contrast into a language is to fol=
low the route of Ithkuil and similar attempts to add precision to language.=
Otherwise, a given language will morphologically or lexically encode some =
aspects of semantic space while ignoring others or expressing them periphra=
stically, e.g. adding "again and again" in English to emphasize the repetit=
ion that is obligatorily conjugated in Navajo as a separate aspect.=20
Klingon marks causatives directly on the verb, where English uses phrases l=
ike "You made him verb"=C2=A0or "You had him verb" to express the idea of o=
ne participant in a clause causing the action that another participant take=
s, along with the unproductive suffix "-en" on adjectives like "darken" or =
"redden". Klingon may not be able to have a sentence as a subject, but Engl=
ish (with traditional grammar) cannot have a sentence without an expressed=
=C2=A0subject, as the pro-drop language Chinese can.
You bring up passive voice, which emphasizes the patient of the verb by mak=
ing the object of the active verb the subject. Klingon has two ways to do s=
omething similar: using the indefinite subject <-lu'> when the object is to=
be emphasized without mentioning the subject: <torgh HoHlu'>=C2=A0=3D "Som=
eone killed Torg", which is close to "Torg was killed." You can also explic=
itly mention a pronominal object or <-'e'>-suffix the object noun to topica=
lize it e.g. <ghaH HoH> =3D "He/she killed *him/her*" or <torgh'e' HoH ghaw=
ran> "Gowron killed *Torg*"=C2=A0which is close to=C2=A0"Torg was killed by=
Gowron". (Note that if you are using the passive voice to create suspense =
until the killer is revealed, Klingon word order does this for you anyway.)=
None of these constructions are actually in the passive voice but they con=
vey most of the same meaning as the English passive voice does.=20
Even irrealis meanings are possible but, unless Maltz remembers an irrealis=
adverb, require context or some sort of periphrastic construction like <tl=
hIngan SoHbe' 'ach SoHchugh bIquv> to be unambiguous. However, as Quvar sai=
d, the missing components aren't really needed, any more than Chinese needs=
tense.
Doug Henning
SIqral bIQtIQDaq
joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qem qeylIS
bIQ DoqDaq tlhabmoH
- paq'batlh, paq'raD 23 =C2=ABHay' chaH=C2=BB
=20
=20
On Monday, October 19, 2015 9:43 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote=
:
=20
I've been meaning to ask..
Whenever you download a program,there is usually a section in the developer=
's page where the "known issues" concerning the application are described ;=
bugs,problems etc..
Are there any known issues/limitations in the Klingon language ? I mean for=
example,lack of the ability to translate into Klingon certain tenses,lack =
of a passive voice etc ? Vocabulary aside,are there in Klingon grammar defi=
ciencies which would make the translation of an english text into Klingon i=
mpossible ?
qunnoQ
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px"><div><sp=
an></span></div><div></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8970">&nbs=
p;</div><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quot=
ed" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8985" style=3D"display: block;"><div i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8984" style=3D"font-family: times new roman=
, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263=
060592_8983" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica=
, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><div class=3D"y_msg_c=
ontainer" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8990"><div id=3D"yiv1760793124">=
<div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_8989"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263=
060592_8988" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, ne=
w york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255)=
;"><div id=3D"yiv1760793124"><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_144526306=
0592_5242"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman,=
new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3910" style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, ser=
if; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Con=
sider the following three alternate questions:</div><div id=3D"yiv176079312=
4yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4060" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-colo=
r: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv=
1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4059" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fo=
nt-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Are there any known issues/lim=
itations in the English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability t=
o translate into English certain handling verbs, lack of a momentaneous, se=
melfactive, and repetitive verb contrasts, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are ther=
e in English grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Nav=
ajo text into English impossible?</div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1=
_1445263060592_3925" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new r=
oman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 2=
55, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui=
_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3911" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: r=
gb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Are there any known issues/limitations in t=
he English language? I mean for example, lack of the ability to translate i=
nto English certain noun classifiers, lack of tense and aspect particl=
es, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English grammar deficiencies which=
would make the translation of a Chinese text into English impossible?</div=
><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4094" style=3D"color: r=
gb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-siz=
e: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3570" style=3D=
"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Are th=
ere any known issues/limitations in the English language? I mean for exampl=
e, lack of the ability to translate into English certain honorific forms, l=
ack of a causative suffix, etc.? Vocabulary aside, are there in English gra=
mmar deficiencies which would make the translation of a Klingon text into E=
nglish impossible?</div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_=
3924" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york,=
times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=
=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445=
263060592_4164" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman,=
new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=
55);" dir=3D"ltr">********</div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_144526=
3060592_4058" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, n=
ew york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255=
);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0=
_1_1445263060592_4155" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new=
roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255,=
255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Every language has a grammar that emphasizes some =
contrasts at the expense of others, and the lack of a particular contrast i=
s not a deficiency. The only way to pack every logically possible contrast =
into a language is to follow the route of Ithkuil and similar attempts to a=
dd precision to language. Otherwise, a given language will morphologically =
or lexically encode some aspects of semantic space while ignoring others or=
expressing them periphrastically, e.g. adding "again and again" in English=
to emphasize the repetition that is obligatorily conjugated in Navajo as a=
separate aspect. </div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: tim=
es new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rg=
b(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1445263060592_9083" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times n=
ew roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(25=
5, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Klingon marks causatives directly on the verb, w=
here English uses phrases like "You made him verb" or "You had him ver=
b" to express the idea of one participant in a clause causing the action th=
at another participant takes, along with the unproductive suffix "-en" on a=
djectives like "darken" or "redden". Klingon may not be able to have a sent=
ence as a subject, but English (with traditional grammar) cannot have a sen=
tence without an expressed subject, as the pro-drop language Chinese c=
an.</div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4203" style=3D"=
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; =
font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5317" =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times=
, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr=
">You bring up passive voice, which emphasizes the patient of the verb by m=
aking the object of the active verb the subject. Klingon has two ways to do=
something similar: using the indefinite subject <-lu'> when the obje=
ct is to be emphasized without mentioning the subject: <torgh HoHlu'>=
=3D "Someone killed Torg", which is close to "Torg was killed." You c=
an also explicitly mention a pronominal object or <-'e'>-suffix the o=
bject noun to topicalize it e.g. <ghaH HoH> =3D "He/she killed *<em i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9084">him/her*</em>" or <torgh'e' HoH gh=
awran> "Gowron killed *<em id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592=
_4640">Torg*</em>" which is close to "Torg was killed by Gowron".=
(Note that if you are using the passive voice to create suspense until the=
killer is revealed, Klingon word order does this for you anyway.) None of =
these constructions are actually in the passive voice but they convey most =
of the same meaning as the English passive voice does. </div><div id=3D"yiv=
1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5379" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fo=
nt-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div =
id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5362" style=3D"color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16p=
x; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr">Even irrealis meaning=
s are possible but, unless Maltz remembers an irrealis adverb, require cont=
ext or some sort of periphrastic construction like <tlhIngan SoHbe' 'ach=
SoHchugh bIquv> to be unambiguous. However, as Quvar said, the missing =
components aren't really needed, any more than Chinese needs tense.</div><d=
iv id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3599" style=3D"color: rgb(=
0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: =
16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"=
></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3579" style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; fo=
nt-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><br id=3D=
"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3549" clear=3D"none"></div><div cl=
ass=3D"yiv1760793124signature" id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_144526306059=
2_4639" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; font-family: gar=
amond,; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Doug Hennin=
g</div><div class=3D"yiv1760793124signature" id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_=
1_1445263060592_4573" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; fo=
nt-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt; backgr=
ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv=
1760793124signature" id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4574" st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); line-height: normal; font-family: times new rom=
an, new york, times, serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255=
, 255);" dir=3D"ltr"><font id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_53=
02" face=3D"lucida console, sans-serif"><strong id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16=
_0_1_1445263060592_4568">SIqral bIQtIQDaq<br id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_=
1_1445263060592_4569" clear=3D"none">joqtaHbogh molor tIqDu' qem qeylIS<br =
id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4570" clear=3D"none">bIQ DoqD=
aq tlhabmoH<br id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4571" clear=3D=
"none">- paq'batlh, paq'raD 23 =C2=ABHay' chaH=C2=BB</strong><br id=3D"yiv1=
760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_4572" clear=3D"none"></font><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv1760793124signature" id=3D"yiv1760793124yu=
i_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_3606" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: t=
imes new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3=
_16_0_1_1445263060592_5498" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: time=
s new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb=
(255, 255, 255);"> <br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv1760793124qtd=
SeparateBR" id=3D"yiv1760793124yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_5391" style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; fo=
nt-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br clear=3D"none"><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div></div></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_90=
89"> <div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9088" style=3D"font-family: time=
s new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div id=3D"yui_3_16=
_0_1_1445263060592_9087" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neu=
e, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div cla=
ss=3D"yiv1760793124qtdSeparateBR"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv><div class=3D"yiv1760793124yqt9739135450" id=3D"yiv1760793124yqt81601"><=
div class=3D"yiv1760793124yqt7654211044" id=3D"yiv1760793124yqt61840"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> On Monday, October 19, 2015 9=
:43 AM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"> </fo=
nt> </div> <br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"> <div class=3D"yiv1760793=
124y_msg_container" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9086"><div id=3D"yiv17=
60793124"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9085" dir=3D"ltr"><div id=
=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9090"><div><div>I've been meaning to ask..<b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>Whenever you download a program,t=
here is usually a section in the developer's page where the "known issues" =
concerning the application are described ; bugs,problems etc..<br clear=3D"=
none"><br clear=3D"none"></div>Are there any known issues/limitations in th=
e Klingon language ? I mean for example,lack of the ability to translate in=
to Klingon certain tenses,lack of a passive voice etc ? Vocabulary aside,ar=
e there in Klingon grammar deficiencies which would make the translation of=
an english text into Klingon impossible ?<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one"></div>qunnoQ<br clear=3D"none"></div></div><br clear=3D"none">________=
_______________________________________<br clear=3D"none">Tlhingan-hol mail=
ing list<br clear=3D"none"><a id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9091" href=
=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=
=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><=
br clear=3D"none"><a id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1445263060592_9092" href=3D"http://=
mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" shape=3D"rect">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br=
clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div> <=
/div> </div> </div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div>=
</div></body></html>
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