[101349] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country Klingon
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (HoD qunnoQ)
Sun Oct 11 11:10:31 2015
In-Reply-To: <41124372-2889-4026-9A00-A9309BB9E77A@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 18:10:14 +0300
From: HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com>
To: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Cc: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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>(Sor Hap) (bIQ Duj) =3D (matter of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden s=
hip
does this mean that nouns are always (whenever they are stringed together)
grouped in pairs ? i.e. the first two,then the next two etc ?
> tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingon, or it is a Klingo=
n's foot
> qam Hom =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot's bone
> baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot
> tlhIngan baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (this=
sounds a
little weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.
> You are a human foot surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human SoH
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh what is {vIrI'} ? i can't f=
ind its meaning..
And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of language
(real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that language,and not
just try to replace words from his native language to the one he's trying
to learn. That is why i have bought every Klingon book i managed to
find,hoping that as soon as i learn the basics,i will start reading -even
at a very slow pace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel>> of the Klingon.
qunnoQ
On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at 2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <
lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent answers and lessons here, I ju=
st want
> to open your mind to principles that are mentioned in The Klingon
> Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new people learning the langua=
ge.
>
> Klingon is a language, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize
> that replacing English words with Klingon words and changing the word ord=
er
> is not always going to translate an English sentence into a Klingon
> sentence very well. Sometimes, you have to pay less attention to the word=
s
> in an English sentence and pay more attention to its meaning.
>
> In particular, I=E2=80=99m going to make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now wri=
ting somewhat of
> an example of how a person speaking English can easily pack a lot more th=
an
> that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high schoo=
l, which is
> supposed to be the official boundary of what constitutes a sentence into =
a
> sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensive use of =E2=80=9Chelp=
er words=E2=80=9D,
> can pack quite a bit more than a single thought into a sentence and just
> keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have nothing to do with the
> original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sentence was supposed to=
have contained,
> much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage cheese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed=
quite believably
> within the boundaries of the dream to be the secret of the Universe =E2=
=80=94 the
> answer to all questions =E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing t=
o do with
> the sentence I started writing to illustrate one of the differences betwe=
en
> Klingon grammar and English grammar.
>
> My point is, that English can pack much more into a sentence than any
> self-respecting Klingon speaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one
> Klingon sentence.
>
> So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=E2=80=9D ther=
e is no reason to
> not break that down into two Klingon sentences. {HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Huma=
n jIH.}
>
> Or, if you wanted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human=
qamDu=E2=80=99
> vIrI=E2=80=99.
>
> It makes for very clear expression of meaning, and avoids the artificial
> challenge of packing three nouns together, leaving the listener to figure
> out from context what the relationship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expec=
t to hold
> a Klingon=E2=80=99s attention by packing more than one thought into a sen=
tence. He
> might hurt you. Don=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak lo=
ng, complex
> sentences to a Klingon.
>
> In TKD, Okrand also points out that in Klingon, it is much more common
> than in English to repeat the same noun in a sentence, where in English w=
e
> tend to replace all but the first mention with pronouns. The point here i=
s
> that Klingon sentences tend to be short enough that you aren=E2=80=99t pa=
dding them
> all that much to repeat a noun now and then, and it gives you the
> opportunity to be extremely clear about exactly whom or what you are
> talking about.
>
> Since Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to
> destroy, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon
> clearly.
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> thanks for the corrections ! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a spac=
e
> ship,but i got the word order wrong ; but now i understand how i should
> have written it.
>
> moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a paper
> book ?" but yet another question arises.. the 'a' is an interrogative ;
> why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unnecessary ?
>
> and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. qam HaqwI' SoH.
>
> but if wanted to write "no,you are a human foot surgeon" how would i writ=
e
> it ? "ghobe'. qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?
>
> qunnoQ
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <kenjutsuka@live.com> wrote:
>
>> >> HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?
>> >
>> > with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm a surgeo=
n
>> > too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"
>>
>> maj!
>>
>> > i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon". So
>> > maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."
>>
>> Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation. It cannot be used
>> to answer a "yes" or "no" question. It is used when somebody tells you =
to
>> do something and you refuse. Now look up {ghobe'}. The sentence which
>> follows that was very well done. majQa'!
>>
>> > @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !
>>
>> Perfect use of {SoH}! Though I think the other words may have gotten a
>> little mixed up.
>>
>> When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), the
>> second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it =
in
>> some way. A common relationship between the two is that the first noun =
is
>> owner of the second noun. But it may also be that the second noun is ma=
de
>> out of the first noun. Or that second noun is the type used by the firs=
t
>> noun. Other more complicated relationships are possible, but the point
>> it's a first-noun kind of second-noun. By the way, this is exactly how =
we
>> do it in English, too and when you are putting two nouns together you ca=
n
>> often (but not always) just put the English and Klingon in the same orde=
r
>> (for possession we add 's in English, but nothing in Klingon). In those
>> cases where that is not clear, it helps to reverse the order of the word=
s
>> and insert "of".
>>
>> {janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). {baS Haqtaj} is a
>> "steel scalpel" (made of). {tlhIngan Duj} is a "Klingon ship" (used by)=
.
>> {yIn Quj} is the "game of life" (more complicated relationship).
>>
>> So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or a "surgeon of the
>> foot". You are a "limb kind of surgeon", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeo=
n
>> of the limbs". And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space"=
, a
>> "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship". You might have inste=
ad
>> meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", but I'm proceeding under the assumption
>> that you meant to call Qov a "space ship". If that's the case, then you=
're
>> saying she's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind. The
>> descriptor goes first followed by the thing being described. So {logh D=
uj}
>> is "space ship".
>>
>> nav paq jIH'a'?
>>
>> janSIy
>> _______________________________________________
>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font=
-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">(S=
or Hap) (bIQ Duj)=C2=A0 =3D (matter of tree) (vessel of water) =3D a wooden=
ship<br><br></span></div>does this<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"> mean th=
at nouns are always (whenever they are stringed together) grouped in pairs =
? i.e. the first two,then the next two etc ?<br><br>></span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";c=
olor:rgb(31,73,125)"> tlhIngan qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a Klingo=
n, or it is a Klingon's foot<br></span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
> qam Hom =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a bone of the foot,or it is the foot'=
;s bone<br>> baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a metallic foot<br>> tlhIn=
gan baS qam =E2=80=98oH =3D it is a foot of a metallic Klingon (this sounds=
a little weird), or it is a Klingon metallic foot.<br>> </span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">You are a human foot surgeon =3D qam HaqwI Human So=
H<br><br></span></div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span class=3D"im">lo=
jmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh </span>what is {vIrI'} ? =
i can't find its meaning.. <br></span></div><span style=3D"font-size:11=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,1=
25)">And yes,you are right ; in order for someone to learn any kind of lang=
uage (real or constructed) he has to learn to think in that language,and no=
t just try to replace words from his native language to the one he's tr=
ying to learn. That is why i have bought every Klingon book i managed to fi=
nd,hoping that as soon as i learn the basics,i will start reading -even at =
a very slow pace- in Klingon so as to get the <<feel>> of the K=
lingon.<br><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
"Calibri","sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)">qunnoQ<br>=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:"Calibri&q=
uot;,"sans-serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Oct 11, 2015 at=
2:14 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gma=
il.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Just to supplement Qov=E2=80=99s excellent a=
nswers and lessons here, I just want to open your mind to principles that a=
re mentioned in The Klingon Dictionary, but tend to be glossed over by new =
people learning the language.</div><div><br></div><div>Klingon is a languag=
e, not a code. Implied in this, you need to realize that replacing English =
words with Klingon words and changing the word order is not always going to=
translate an English sentence into a Klingon sentence very well. Sometimes=
, you have to pay less attention to the words in an English sentence and pa=
y more attention to its meaning.</div><div><br></div><div>In particular, I=
=E2=80=99m going to make the sentence I=E2=80=99m now writing somewhat of a=
n example of how a person speaking English can easily pack a lot more than =
that =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D they taught you about in high school,=
which is supposed to be the official boundary of what constitutes a senten=
ce into a sentence, but in fact, English, though its extensive use of =E2=
=80=9Chelper words=E2=80=9D, can pack quite a bit more than a single though=
t into a sentence and just keep on going, sucking in new ideas that have no=
thing to do with the original =E2=80=9Csingle thought=E2=80=9D that a sente=
nce was supposed to have contained, much like the term =E2=80=9Ccottage che=
ese=E2=80=9D, which I once dreamed quite believably within the boundaries o=
f the dream to be the secret of the Universe =E2=80=94 the answer to all qu=
estions =E2=80=94 even though it has absolutely nothing to do with the sent=
ence I started writing to illustrate one of the differences between Klingon=
grammar and English grammar.</div><div><br></div><div>My point is, that En=
glish can pack much more into a sentence than any self-respecting Klingon s=
peaker would ever want to TRY to pack into one Klingon sentence.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>So, if you want to say, =E2=80=9CI am a human foot surgeon,=
=E2=80=9D there is no reason to not break that down into two Klingon senten=
ces. {HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human jIH.}</div><div><br></div><div>Or, if you w=
anted to make that other statement: HaqwI=E2=80=99 jIH. Human qamDu=E2=80=
=99 vIrI=E2=80=99.</div><div><br></div><div>It makes for very clear express=
ion of meaning, and avoids the artificial challenge of packing three nouns =
together, leaving the listener to figure out from context what the relation=
ship is among them. Don=E2=80=99t expect to hold a Klingon=E2=80=99s attent=
ion by packing more than one thought into a sentence. He might hurt you. Do=
n=E2=80=99t tease a gorilla, and don=E2=80=99t speak long, complex sentence=
s to a Klingon.</div><div><br></div><div>In TKD, Okrand also points out tha=
t in Klingon, it is much more common than in English to repeat the same nou=
n in a sentence, where in English we tend to replace all but the first ment=
ion with pronouns. The point here is that Klingon sentences tend to be shor=
t enough that you aren=E2=80=99t padding them all that much to repeat a nou=
n now and then, and it gives you the opportunity to be extremely clear abou=
t exactly whom or what you are talking about.</div><div><br></div><div>Sinc=
e Klingons are often discussing things like whom to kill or what to destroy=
, clarity has a lot of cultural value. Learn to speak Klingon clearly.</div=
><span class=3D""><br><div>
<div><div>lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh</div><div>Door Re=
pair Guy, Retired Honorably</div></div><div><br></div><br>
</div>
<br></span><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span class=3D""><div>On Oct 10, =
2015, at 11:46 AM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></span><div><div cl=
ass=3D"h5"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>thanks for the corrections =
! yes indeed i tried to say that Qov is a space ship,but i got the word ord=
er wrong ; but now i understand how i should have written it.<br><br></div>=
moving on to your new question,as i understand it,it asks "am i a pape=
r book ?" but yet another question arises..=C2=A0 the 'a' is a=
n interrogative ; why place a question mark at the end ? isn't that unn=
ecessary ?<br><br></div>and to try to answer to the question : ghobe'. =
<span>qam HaqwI' SoH.=C2=A0 <br><br>but if wanted to write "no,you=
are a human foot surgeon" how would i write it ? "</span>ghobe&#=
39;. <span>qam HaqwI' Human SoH " ?<br><br></span></div><div><span=
>qunnoQ<br></span></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 10, 2015 at 3:42 PM, David Holt <span dir=3D"ltr">=
<<a href=3D"mailto:kenjutsuka@live.com" target=3D"_blank">kenjutsuka@liv=
e.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span>>>=
; HaqwI' JIH je. qam HaqwI' jIH. ro HaqwI' SoH'a'?<br>
><br>
> with the help of the boQwI app i think that this means : "i'm=
a surgeon<br>
> too. a foot surgeon. are you a trunk/body surgeon ?"<br>
<br>
</span>maj!<br>
<span><br>
> i would like to give the reply "no,i'm an orthopaedic surgeon=
". So<br>
> maybe i would say : "Qo'. ghIv HaqwI' jiH."<br>
<br>
</span>Check what boQwI' says about {Qo'} as an exclamation.=C2=A0 =
It cannot be used to answer a "yes" or "no" question.=
=C2=A0 It is used when somebody tells you to do something and you refuse.=
=C2=A0 Now look up {ghobe'}.=C2=A0 The sentence which follows that was =
very well done. =C2=A0majQa'!<br>
<span><br>
> @ Qov (robyn) : Duj logh SoH !=C2=A0<br>
<br>
</span>Perfect use of {SoH}!=C2=A0 Though I think the other words may have =
gotten a little mixed up.<br>
<br>
When you put two nouns together (like {ghIv HaqwI'} and {Duj logh}), th=
e second noun is the thing being described and the first noun modifies it i=
n some way.=C2=A0 A common relationship between the two is that the first n=
oun is owner of the second noun.=C2=A0 But it may also be that the second n=
oun is made out of the first noun.=C2=A0 Or that second noun is the type us=
ed by the first noun.=C2=A0 Other more complicated relationships are possib=
le, but the point it's a first-noun kind of second-noun.=C2=A0 By the w=
ay, this is exactly how we do it in English, too and when you are putting t=
wo nouns together you can often (but not always) just put the English and K=
lingon in the same order (for possession we add 's in English, but noth=
ing in Klingon).=C2=A0 In those cases where that is not clear, it helps to =
reverse the order of the words and insert "of".<br>
<br>
{janSIy SID} is "Johnshee's patient" (ownership). =C2=A0{baS =
Haqtaj} is a "steel scalpel" (made of). =C2=A0{tlhIngan Duj} is a=
"Klingon ship" (used by). =C2=A0{yIn Quj} is the "game of l=
ife" (more complicated relationship).<br>
<br>
So I am a "foot kind of surgeon", a "foot surgeon", or =
a "surgeon of the foot".=C2=A0 You are a "limb kind of surge=
on", a "limb surgeon", or a "surgeon of the limbs"=
.=C2=A0 And you've described Qov as a "ship kind of outer space&qu=
ot;, a "ship outer space", or an "outer space of a ship"=
;.=C2=A0 You might have instead meant {Duj} to mean "instinct", b=
ut I'm proceeding under the assumption that you meant to call Qov a &qu=
ot;space ship".=C2=A0 If that's the case, then you're saying s=
he's a kind of ship and the kind of ship is a space kind.=C2=A0 The des=
criptor goes first followed by the thing being described.=C2=A0 So {logh Du=
j} is "space ship".<br>
<br>
nav paq jIH'a'?<br>
<div><div><br>
janSIy<br>
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a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>_____________________=
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