[101285] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Canon: Associate Producer
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmIt tI'wI' nuv)
Sun Oct 4 17:46:09 2015
From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv" <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
X-Google-Original-From: lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmIttI7wI7nuv@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAP7F2cL1wcgtqRSPiagCwWNZ3yrHKHxqRdFXk+QYf2TOLeYhpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2015 17:45:43 -0400
To: "tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org"
<tlhingan-hol@stodi.digitalkingdom.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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No rule. Most words are short, since the prefix and suffixes can make a shor=
t word long. Verbs are nearly always one syllable. The exceptions usually ha=
ve a history to explain it. Nouns are typically one or two syllable, though a=
ll long root words are nouns. Some chuvmey are polysyllabic, like {SIbI'} an=
d {ghaytan}. Expletives are commonly two syllable, oddly enough. HIja'. ghob=
e'. Qu'vatlh! toDSaH!
But the only real rule is that (with few exceptions like {lI'be'} and {lo'la=
H}) verbs are monosyllabic.
Sent from my iPad
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
> On Oct 3, 2015, at 3:23 PM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> ok,now that i am thinking on the subject,more questions arise..
>=20
> is there a rule for how many syllables is the allowed maximum,for a single=
word ? for instance,can a single word be composed of 6 syllables ?
>=20
> qunnoQ
>=20
>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:37 PM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>> thank you ! everything is much clearer now !
>>=20
>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 6:59 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Rule #1: All Klingon syllables begin with a consonant (the glottal stop i=
s a consonant) followed by a vowel =E2=80=94 with the one exception being so=
me instances of the noun suffix {-oy}.=20
>>>=20
>>> Rule #2: Some syllables end with that vowel, though most end with a sing=
le consonant following the vowel.
>>>=20
>>> Rule #3: The only consonant clusters allowed at the end of a syllable ar=
e {-rgh}, {-y=E2=80=99} and {-w=E2=80=99}.
>>>=20
>>> Maybe I=E2=80=99ve forgotten other consonant clusters, but I think that=E2=
=80=99s it.
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 3, 2015, at 11:37 AM, HoD qunnoQ <mihkoun@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> a fellow member of the list,pointed out earlier that a klingon word can=
not end with "nD". could someone point out what other word endings are inapp=
ropriate/nonexistent in klingon ?
>>>>=20
>>>> On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 4:29 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmai=
l.com> wrote:
>>>>> As Okrand explained, English has no soft onset for vowel-first syllabl=
es, so, unless you speak Hawaiian like a native, you don't know what soft on=
set sounds like or feels like because you've never done it or heard it durin=
g your language-formative years. It's like trying to explain "L"s and "R"s t=
o someone who has exclusively spoken languages that lack them, or like expla=
ining the difference between "pin" and "pen" to someone who speaks a dialect=
that pronounces them exactly alike. The difference is smaller to his ear th=
an the difference between two different people saying "pen", so he can't hea=
r which of the two words anyone is saying.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> English starts vowel-first syllables with a glottal stop. Deal with it=
.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My wife pronounces "where" and "wear" exactly alike and thinks my pron=
unciation of "where" is sufficiently alien to her to be no end of amusement.=
She pronounces "why" like the letter "Y". It leaves me wondering why she do=
esn't pronounce "who" as "woo". When I point that out, she becomes puzzled. S=
he never thought about that until I pointed it out, then she just declares "=
That's just how it is," and avoids thinking about it further, since she pref=
ers to think that her pronunciation is generally better than mine, when ther=
e is a difference.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> She also thinks that if a man says something in a forest and there is n=
o woman there to hear him, yes, he is still wrong.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv
>>>>>=20
>>>>> > On Oct 3, 2015, at 4:25 AM, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I wrote:
>>>>> >> Because in Klingon, no word starts with a vowel. Even from a lingui=
stic
>>>>> >> view, in most languages, words woth vowels start with a glottal sto=
p.
>>>>> >> Try saying "I ate eight egg" without the stop. I will sound like
>>>>> >> "hi-yate-tate-hags".
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Am 22.09.2015 um 09:32 schrieb Anthony Appleyard:
>>>>> >> In my pronunciation of English (I am in England), the separator in "=
I-ate-eight-eggs" is a slight hesitation, and not a true glottal stop with c=
losure of the glottis.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > This may be correct from a linguistic point of view, but my explanat=
ion is the very closest approachment I can get to explain this to a non-ling=
uist, which are most of the Klingon students.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It's also possible that my example does not work exactly in english a=
s it does in German though.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Lieven L. Litaer
>>>>> > aka Quvar valer 'utlh
>>>>> > Grammarian of the KLI
>>>>> > http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher
>>>>> > http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>>>> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>>>> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>No rule. Most words are short, since t=
he prefix and suffixes can make a short word long. Verbs are nearly always o=
ne syllable. The exceptions usually have a history to explain it. Nouns are t=
ypically one or two syllable, though all long root words are nouns. Some chu=
vmey are polysyllabic, like {SIbI'} and {ghaytan}. Expletives are commonly t=
wo syllable, oddly enough. HIja'. ghobe'. Qu'vatlh! toDSaH!</div><div id=3D"=
AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">But the only re=
al rule is that (with few exceptions like {lI'be'} and {lo'laH}) verbs are m=
onosyllabic.<br><br><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);=
">Sent from my iPad</span><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 25=
5, 255, 0);">lojmIt tI'wI' nuv</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 3, 2015, at=
3:23 PM, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com">mihkoun@gmail.=
com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><div>ok,now that i am thinking on the subject,more questions arise.=
.<br><br></div>is there a rule for how many syllables is the allowed maximum=
,for a single word ? for instance,can a single word be composed of 6 syllabl=
es ?<br><br></div>qunnoQ<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 9:37 PM, HoD qunnoQ <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihkoun@gmail.com<=
/a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">than=
k you ! everything is much clearer now !<br></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div=
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Oct 3, 2015 at 6:59 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D=
"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Rule #1: All Klingon syllables begin with a cons=
onant (the glottal stop is a consonant) followed by a vowel =E2=80=94 with t=
he one exception being some instances of the noun suffix {-oy}. </div><=
div><br></div><div>Rule #2: Some syllables end with that vowel, though most e=
nd with a single consonant following the vowel.</div><div><br></div><div>Rul=
e #3: The only consonant clusters allowed at the end of a syllable are {-rgh=
}, {-y=E2=80=99} and {-w=E2=80=99}.</div><div><br></div><div>Maybe I=E2=80=99=
ve forgotten other consonant clusters, but I think that=E2=80=99s it.</div><=
div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Oct 3, 2015, at 11:37 AM=
, HoD qunnoQ <<a href=3D"mailto:mihkoun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mihk=
oun@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">a fellow member o=
f the list,pointed out earlier that a klingon word cannot end with "nD". cou=
ld someone point out what other word endings are inappropriate/nonexistent i=
n klingon ?<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 4:29 PM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv <span dir=3D"ltr"><<=
a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nu=
v@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">As Okrand=
explained, English has no soft onset for vowel-first syllables, so, unless y=
ou speak Hawaiian like a native, you don't know what soft onset sounds like o=
r feels like because you've never done it or heard it during your language-f=
ormative years. It's like trying to explain "L"s and "R"s to someone who has=
exclusively spoken languages that lack them, or like explaining the differe=
nce between "pin" and "pen" to someone who speaks a dialect that pronounces t=
hem exactly alike. The difference is smaller to his ear than the difference b=
etween two different people saying "pen", so he can't hear which of the two w=
ords anyone is saying.<br>
<br>
English starts vowel-first syllables with a glottal stop. Deal with it.<br>
<br>
My wife pronounces "where" and "wear" exactly alike and thinks my pronunciat=
ion of "where" is sufficiently alien to her to be no end of amusement. She p=
ronounces "why" like the letter "Y". It leaves me wondering why she doesn't p=
ronounce "who" as "woo". When I point that out, she becomes puzzled. She nev=
er thought about that until I pointed it out, then she just declares "That's=
just how it is," and avoids thinking about it further, since she prefers to=
think that her pronunciation is generally better than mine, when there is a=
difference.<br>
<br>
She also thinks that if a man says something in a forest and there is no wom=
an there to hear him, yes, he is still wrong.<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad<br>
<span><font color=3D"#888888">lojmIt tI'wI' nuv<br>
</font></span><div><div><br>
> On Oct 3, 2015, at 4:25 AM, Lieven <<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.d=
e" target=3D"_blank">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> I wrote:<br>
>> Because in Klingon, no word starts with a vowel. Even from a lingui=
stic<br>
>> view, in most languages, words woth vowels start with a glottal sto=
p.<br>
>> Try saying "I ate eight egg" without the stop. I will sound like<br=
>
>> "hi-yate-tate-hags".<br>
><br>
>> Am 22.09.2015 um 09:32 schrieb Anthony Appleyard:<br>
>> In my pronunciation of English (I am in England), the separator in "=
I-ate-eight-eggs" is a slight hesitation, and not a true glottal stop with c=
losure of the glottis.<br>
><br>
> This may be correct from a linguistic point of view, but my explanation=
is the very closest approachment I can get to explain this to a non-linguis=
t, which are most of the Klingon students.<br>
><br>
> It's also possible that my example does not work exactly in english as i=
t does in German though.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Lieven L. Litaer<br>
> aka Quvar valer 'utlh<br>
> Grammarian of the KLI<br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.facebook.com/Klingonteacher</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
target=3D"_blank">http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/Apostrophe</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@=
kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l</a><br>
<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.o=
rg</a><br>
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rer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a>=
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div><br>_________________________=
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=
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