[100993] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Robyn Stewart)
Wed Aug 5 15:44:03 2015
From: "Robyn Stewart" <robyn@flyingstart.ca>
To: "'Elizabeth Lawrence'" <elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAG_hjBQZH9TCwT4XJpN=Sq+9Y29ovDycY7fkPP80=RU5EGuZdA@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 12:43:31 -0700
Cc: 'tlhIngan Hol mailing list' <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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vImugh =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vInID is the sentence I would have chosen, =
too. I was impressed that Maxim wrote the whole question in Klingon, and =
I understood the meaning, so I answered the question without correcting =
the grammar of the question itself.
Beginners, I hope you=E2=80=99re not intimidated by the enthusiasm with =
which the group offers corrections and advice here. We=E2=80=99re =
passionate about the language and want everything written in it to be as =
good as it can be. We=E2=80=99d rather If you want coaching on your =
Klingon but are hesitant to expose your first efforts to such scrutiny, =
most of us will be quite willing to answer your e-mails privately. You =
can see our e-mail addresses in the headers of e-mail we send to the =
list, and pick someone to e-mail. =20
- Qov
=20
From: Elizabeth Lawrence [mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com]=20
Sent: August 5, 2015 8:55
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner
=20
I'd like to offer an alternative translation for mugh jInID. While -meH =
is a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would personally tend to =
use 'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object. I would say either=20
=20
jImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate (lit. I attempt that I translate)
=20
or=20
=20
vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate it (lit. I attempt that I =
translate it)
=20
In this case, I might even say
=20
mu'tlheghvam vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate this sentence
=20
You will find that you often have to recast your thoughts in order to =
translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often more useful to say =
something that carries the same meaning than to attempt a word-for-word =
translation. There are often multiple ways to do this, and which you =
choose to use can sometimes be a matter of preference, or of fine shades =
of meaning.
=20
yImughchu'
=20
be''etlh
=20
On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com> =
wrote:
Qov answered you well. Until someone else is assigned the role of =
Beginners=E2=80=99 Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, =
myself, I fondly remember when I was first learning the language and =
Captain Krankor answered my questions and patiently set me on the path =
to learning the warrior tongue.
=20
I=E2=80=99ll continue to a greater depth in response to your post. =
Please do not misinterpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The =
language is impossible to learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as =
you have, to say a variety of things will stumble into aspects of the =
language that might not be obvious, and your attempts to explore this =
will give you even more insight into the language.
=20
You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=E2=80=99t provide an English =
translation, I have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you =
wanted to say, =E2=80=9CI try to translate.=E2=80=9D The problem is with =
=E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s called an =
=E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s a form of the verb that has =
no subject. Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.
=20
With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a =
subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a =
verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The =
classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We=E2=80=99d =
call it a =E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but the literal =
translation is more like =E2=80=9Can in-order-to-learn knife=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ca knife whose purpose is to learn=E2=80=9D.
=20
So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=9CI try to translate,=E2=80=9D =
you could recast that idea as =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate, I =
try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe purpose of my attempt is to =
translate.=E2=80=9D {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH =
jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not =
perfectly consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that =
when a {-meH} clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an =
action), the verb with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or =
object. The presence or absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when =
a {-meH} verb modifies a noun, it is far more common for there to be no =
subject or object implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH =
taj}).
=20
Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH} =
means =E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To say, =E2=80=9CI cause to =
form=E2=80=9D is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t have much meaning if =
there isn=E2=80=99t something that I am causing to form. You need an =
object. The prefix for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D is {vI-}, so =
I would have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an =
option.
=20
Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. =
=E2=80=9CIn order that I translate it, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try =
with the purpose that I translate it.=E2=80=9D It sounds stilted in =
English only because I=E2=80=99m favoring something closer to a literal =
translation for teaching purposes. When we translate it, we usually make =
it more like English and say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ll try to translate =
it,=E2=80=9D which is grammatically very different from the Klingon =
because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.
=20
Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, but probably =
doesn=E2=80=99t quite mean what you intended. It is a statement. =
=E2=80=9CYou help me.=E2=80=9D If you want it to be a command, =
there=E2=80=99s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} =E2=80=9CHelp me."
=20
I hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel even the slightest bit =
bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don=E2=80=99t expect to =
learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much =
better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and =
never learn to walk.
=20
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
=20
=20
=20
On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <maxim.sonin@gmail.com> wrote:
=20
"We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.
"loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.
choQaH.
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
=20
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>vImugh =E2=80=98e=E2=80=99 vInID is the sentence I would have chosen, =
too. I was impressed that Maxim wrote the whole question in Klingon, and =
I understood the meaning, so I answered the question without correcting =
the grammar of the question itself.<br><br>Beginners, I hope =
you=E2=80=99re not intimidated by the enthusiasm with which the group =
offers corrections and advice here.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99re passionate about =
the language and want everything written in it to be as good as it can =
be.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99d rather If you want coaching on your Klingon but =
are hesitant to expose your first efforts to such scrutiny, most of us =
will be quite willing to answer your e-mails privately. You can see our =
e-mail addresses in the headers of e-mail we send to the list, and pick =
someone to e-mail.=C2=A0 <br><br>- Qov<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Elizabeth =
Lawrence [mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> August =
5, 2015 8:55<br><b>Cc:</b> tlhIngan Hol mailing list<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'd =
like to offer an alternative translation for mugh jInID. While =
-meH is a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would personally tend =
to use 'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object. I would say =
either <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>jImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate (lit. I attempt =
that I translate)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>or <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate it (lit. I =
attempt that I translate it)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>In this case, I might even =
say<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>mu'tlheghvam vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate =
this sentence<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You will find that you often have to recast your =
thoughts in order to translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often =
more useful to say something that carries the same meaning than to =
attempt a word-for-word translation. There are often multiple ways =
to do this, and which you choose to use can sometimes be a matter of =
preference, or of fine shades of meaning.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>yImughchu'<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>be''etlh<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Wed, =
Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Qov answered you =
well. Until someone else is assigned the role of Beginners=E2=80=99 =
Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, myself, I fondly =
remember when I was first learning the language and Captain Krankor =
answered my questions and patiently set me on the path to learning the =
warrior tongue.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99ll continue to a greater depth in response =
to your post. Please do not misinterpret my actions as negativity or =
criticism. The language is impossible to learn all at once, and anyone =
who tries, as you have, to say a variety of things will stumble into =
aspects of the language that might not be obvious, and your attempts to =
explore this will give you even more insight into the =
language.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=E2=80=99t =
provide an English translation, I have to guess a little, though it =
looks a lot like you wanted to say, =E2=80=9CI try to =
translate.=E2=80=9D The problem is with =E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=80=9D. =
That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s called an =E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. =
It=E2=80=99s a form of the verb that has no subject. Klingon =
doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses =
a verb without a subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you =
add {-meH} to a verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or =
of a noun. The classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. =
We=E2=80=99d call it a =E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but =
the literal translation is more like =E2=80=9Can in-order-to-learn =
knife=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ca knife whose purpose is to =
learn=E2=80=9D.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=9CI try to =
translate,=E2=80=9D you could recast that idea as =E2=80=9CIn order that =
I translate, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe purpose of my attempt is to =
translate.=E2=80=9D {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH =
jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not =
perfectly consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that =
when a {-meH} clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an =
action), the verb with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or =
object. The presence or absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when =
a {-meH} verb modifies a noun, it is far more common for there to be no =
subject or object implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH =
taj}).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. =
Literally, {chenmoH} means =E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To say, =
=E2=80=9CI cause to form=E2=80=9D is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t have =
much meaning if there isn=E2=80=99t something that I am causing to form. =
You need an object. The prefix for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D =
is {vI-}, so I would have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that =
as an option.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said =
{vImughmeH jInID}. =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate it, I =
try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try with the purpose that I translate =
it.=E2=80=9D It sounds stilted in English only because I=E2=80=99m =
favoring something closer to a literal translation for teaching =
purposes. When we translate it, we usually make it more like English and =
say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ll try to translate it,=E2=80=9D which is =
grammatically very different from the Klingon because this is a case =
where English and Klingon lack parallel =
grammar.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, =
but probably doesn=E2=80=99t quite mean what you intended. It is a =
statement. =E2=80=9CYou help me.=E2=80=9D If you want it to be a =
command, there=E2=80=99s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} =
=E2=80=9CHelp me."<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel even the slightest bit =
bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don=E2=80=99t expect to =
learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much =
better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and =
never learn to walk.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>pItlh<o:p></o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>lojmIt =
tI'wI'nuv<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:maxim.sonin@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">maxim.sonin@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p>&quo=
t;We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.<br>"loDHom, Qulpu' =
maHbe'": jIchenmoH.<br>choQaH.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Tlhi=
ngan-hol mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>______________________________________=
_________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" =
target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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