[100991] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Elizabeth Lawrence)
Wed Aug 5 11:55:43 2015
In-Reply-To: <9972ECB4-6691-420A-A90A-B0ADA7356632@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 11:55:29 -0400
From: Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08@gmail.com>
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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I'd like to offer an alternative translation for mugh jInID. While -meH is
a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would personally tend to use
'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object. I would say either
jImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate (lit. I attempt that I translate)
or
vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate it (lit. I attempt that I translate
it)
In this case, I might even say
mu'tlheghvam vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate this sentence
You will find that you often have to recast your thoughts in order to
translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often more useful to say
something that carries the same meaning than to attempt a word-for-word
translation. There are often multiple ways to do this, and which you
choose to use can sometimes be a matter of preference, or of fine shades of
meaning.
yImughchu'
be''etlh
On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Qov answered you well. Until someone else is assigned the role of
> Beginners=E2=80=99 Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, mysel=
f, I
> fondly remember when I was first learning the language and Captain Kranko=
r
> answered my questions and patiently set me on the path to learning the
> warrior tongue.
>
> I=E2=80=99ll continue to a greater depth in response to your post. Please=
do not
> misinterpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The language is
> impossible to learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as you have, to sa=
y
> a variety of things will stumble into aspects of the language that might
> not be obvious, and your attempts to explore this will give you even more
> insight into the language.
>
> You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=E2=80=99t provide an English trans=
lation, I
> have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you wanted to say, =E2=
=80=9CI
> try to translate.=E2=80=9D The problem is with =E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=
=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s called
> an =E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s a form of the verb that has=
no subject. Klingon
> doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.
>
> With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a
> subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a
> verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The
> classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We=E2=80=99d cal=
l it a
> =E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but the literal translation i=
s more like =E2=80=9Can
> in-order-to-learn knife=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ca knife whose purpose is to =
learn=E2=80=9D.
>
> So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=9CI try to translate,=E2=80=9D =
you could recast
> that idea as =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=
=80=9Cthe purpose of my
> attempt is to translate.=E2=80=9D {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jI=
mughmeH
> jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not perfectly
> consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that when a {-meH}
> clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an action), the ver=
b
> with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or object. The presence or
> absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when a {-meH} verb modifies a
> noun, it is far more common for there to be no subject or object implied,
> so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH taj}).
>
> Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH}
> means =E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To say, =E2=80=9CI cause to form=
=E2=80=9D is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t
> have much meaning if there isn=E2=80=99t something that I am causing to f=
orm. You
> need an object. The prefix for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D is {v=
I-}, so I would
> have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an option.
>
> Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. =E2=
=80=9CIn
> order that I translate it, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try with the pur=
pose that I
> translate it.=E2=80=9D It sounds stilted in English only because I=E2=80=
=99m favoring
> something closer to a literal translation for teaching purposes. When we
> translate it, we usually make it more like English and say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=
=80=99ll try to
> translate it,=E2=80=9D which is grammatically very different from the Kli=
ngon
> because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.
>
> Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, but probably doesn=
=E2=80=99t
> quite mean what you intended. It is a statement. =E2=80=9CYou help me.=E2=
=80=9D If you want
> it to be a command, there=E2=80=99s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.}=
=E2=80=9CHelp me."
>
> I hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel even the slightest bit =
bad for
> not already knowing all this stuff, and don=E2=80=99t expect to learn it =
all at
> once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much better to stumble,
> attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and never learn to walk.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <maxim.sonin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.
> "loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.
> choQaH.
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I'd like to offer an alternative translation for mugh =
jInID.=C2=A0 While -meH is a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would=
personally tend to use 'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object=
.=C2=A0 I would say either=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>jImugh 'e' vInI=
D - I try to translate (lit. I attempt that I translate)</div><div><br></di=
v><div>or=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>vImugh 'e' vInID - I try t=
o translate it (lit. I attempt that I translate it)</div><div><br></div><di=
v>In this case, I might even say</div><div><br></div><div>mu'tlheghvam =
vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate this sentence</div><div><br><=
/div><div>You will find that you often have to recast your thoughts in orde=
r to translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often more useful to say so=
mething that carries the same meaning than to attempt a word-for-word trans=
lation.=C2=A0 There are often multiple ways to do this, and which you choos=
e to use can sometimes be a matter of preference, or of fine shades of mean=
ing.</div><div><br></div><div>yImughchu'</div><div><br></div><div>be=
9;'etlh</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a =
href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitti7wi7nuv=
@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>Qov answered you well. Until someone else =
is assigned the role of Beginners=E2=80=99 Grammarian, she gets first dibs.=
As a former BG, myself, I fondly remember when I was first learning the la=
nguage and Captain Krankor answered my questions and patiently set me on th=
e path to learning the warrior tongue.</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99l=
l continue to a greater depth in response to your post. Please do not misin=
terpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The language is impossible t=
o learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as you have, to say a variety of=
things will stumble into aspects of the language that might not be obvious=
, and your attempts to explore this will give you even more insight into th=
e language.</div><div><br></div><div>You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=
=E2=80=99t provide an English translation, I have to guess a little, though=
it looks a lot like you wanted to say, =E2=80=9CI try to translate.=E2=80=
=9D The problem is with =E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s what=
=E2=80=99s called an =E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s a form of t=
he verb that has no subject. Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.</div=
><div><br></div><div>With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses =
a verb without a subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add=
{-meH} to a verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a n=
oun. The classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We=E2=80=
=99d call it a =E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but the literal =
translation is more like =E2=80=9Can in-order-to-learn knife=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ca knife whose purpose is to learn=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=9CI try to translate,=E2=80=9D=
you could recast that idea as =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate, I try,=
=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe purpose of my attempt is to translate.=E2=80=9D {=
mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH jInID}. The canon examples we=
have of verbs with {-meH} are not perfectly consistent, though the pattern=
that I have learned is that when a {-meH} clause modifies a main clause, (=
giving the purpose of an action), the verb with {-meH} may or may not have =
a subject and/or object. The presence or absence of a subject seem to work =
fine. But when a {-meH} verb modifies a noun, it is far more common for the=
re to be no subject or object implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghoj=
meH taj}).</div><div><br></div><div>Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH}=
is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH} means =E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To=
say, =E2=80=9CI cause to form=E2=80=9D is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t h=
ave much meaning if there isn=E2=80=99t something that I am causing to form=
. You need an object. The prefix for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D i=
s {vI-}, so I would have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as =
an option.</div><div><br></div><div>Similarly, going back earlier, you coul=
d have said {vImughmeH jInID}. =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate it, I try=
,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try with the purpose that I translate it.=E2=80=9D=
It sounds stilted in English only because I=E2=80=99m favoring something c=
loser to a literal translation for teaching purposes. When we translate it,=
we usually make it more like English and say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ll try to=
translate it,=E2=80=9D which is grammatically very different from the Klin=
gon because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly for=
med, but probably doesn=E2=80=99t quite mean what you intended. It is a sta=
tement. =E2=80=9CYou help me.=E2=80=9D If you want it to be a command, ther=
e=E2=80=99s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} =E2=80=9CHelp me."</=
div><div><br></div><div>I hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel e=
ven the slightest bit bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don=
=E2=80=99t expect to learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you tryi=
ng. It is much better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely =
sit and never learn to walk.</div><br><div>
<span style=3D"border-collapse:separate;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvet=
ica;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div>pItlh</div><div>lojmI=
t tI'wI'nuv</div><div><br></div></span><br>
</div>
<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"h5"><div>On Aug 4, 20=
15, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <<a href=3D"mailto:maxim.sonin@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">maxim.sonin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br></div></div><=
div><div><div class=3D"h5"><p dir=3D"ltr">"We are not angels, boy"=
;: mugh jInID.<br>
"loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.<br>
choQaH.</p></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>Tlhingan-hol mailing lis=
t<br><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" target=3D"_blank">Tlhingan-hol=
@kli.org</a><br><a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-ho=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><=
br></div></blockquote></div><br></div><br>_________________________________=
______________<br>
Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</=
a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
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