[100988] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Will Martin)
Wed Aug 5 08:33:16 2015
From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 08:32:16 -0400
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CAFMfxPJdvXFyN59rduOfTBfEqKq6yvZsuuw2fUGa5MTqY=OQLg@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Qov answered you well. Until someone else is assigned the role of =
Beginners=E2=80=99 Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, =
myself, I fondly remember when I was first learning the language and =
Captain Krankor answered my questions and patiently set me on the path =
to learning the warrior tongue.
I=E2=80=99ll continue to a greater depth in response to your post. =
Please do not misinterpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The =
language is impossible to learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as =
you have, to say a variety of things will stumble into aspects of the =
language that might not be obvious, and your attempts to explore this =
will give you even more insight into the language.
You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=E2=80=99t provide an English =
translation, I have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you =
wanted to say, =E2=80=9CI try to translate.=E2=80=9D The problem is with =
=E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s called an =
=E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s a form of the verb that has =
no subject. Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.
With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a =
subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a =
verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The =
classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We=E2=80=99d =
call it a =E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but the literal =
translation is more like =E2=80=9Can in-order-to-learn knife=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9Ca knife whose purpose is to learn=E2=80=9D.
So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=9CI try to translate,=E2=80=9D =
you could recast that idea as =E2=80=9CIn order that I translate, I =
try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe purpose of my attempt is to translate.=E2=80=
=9D {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH jInID}. The canon =
examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not perfectly consistent, =
though the pattern that I have learned is that when a {-meH} clause =
modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an action), the verb with =
{-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or object. The presence or =
absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when a {-meH} verb modifies =
a noun, it is far more common for there to be no subject or object =
implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH taj}).
Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH} =
means =E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To say, =E2=80=9CI cause to =
form=E2=80=9D is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t have much meaning if =
there isn=E2=80=99t something that I am causing to form. You need an =
object. The prefix for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D is {vI-}, so =
I would have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an =
option.
Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. =
=E2=80=9CIn order that I translate it, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try =
with the purpose that I translate it.=E2=80=9D It sounds stilted in =
English only because I=E2=80=99m favoring something closer to a literal =
translation for teaching purposes. When we translate it, we usually make =
it more like English and say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ll try to translate =
it,=E2=80=9D which is grammatically very different from the Klingon =
because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.
Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, but probably =
doesn=E2=80=99t quite mean what you intended. It is a statement. =E2=80=9C=
You help me.=E2=80=9D If you want it to be a command, there=E2=80=99s a =
different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} =E2=80=9CHelp me."
I hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel even the slightest bit =
bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don=E2=80=99t expect to =
learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much =
better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and =
never learn to walk.
pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <maxim.sonin@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> "We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.
> "loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.
> choQaH.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Qov answered you well. Until someone else is =
assigned the role of Beginners=E2=80=99 Grammarian, she gets first dibs. =
As a former BG, myself, I fondly remember when I was first learning the =
language and Captain Krankor answered my questions and patiently set me =
on the path to learning the warrior tongue.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ll continue to a greater =
depth in response to your post. Please do not misinterpret my actions as =
negativity or criticism. The language is impossible to learn all at =
once, and anyone who tries, as you have, to say a variety of things will =
stumble into aspects of the language that might not be obvious, and your =
attempts to explore this will give you even more insight into the =
language.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You =
wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn=E2=80=99t provide an English =
translation, I have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you =
wanted to say, =E2=80=9CI try to translate.=E2=80=9D The problem is with =
=E2=80=9Cto translate=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s what=E2=80=99s called an =
=E2=80=9Cinfinitive=E2=80=9D. It=E2=80=99s a form of the verb that has =
no subject. Klingon doesn=E2=80=99t have infinitives.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With one exception that =
I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a subject. That exception =
is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a verb, that verb states =
the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The classic example of it =
modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We=E2=80=99d call it a =
=E2=80=9Cbeginner=E2=80=99s knife=E2=80=9D, but the literal translation =
is more like =E2=80=9Can in-order-to-learn knife=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Ca =
knife whose purpose is to learn=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, thinking through the statement =E2=80=
=9CI try to translate,=E2=80=9D you could recast that idea as =E2=80=9CIn =
order that I translate, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cthe purpose of my =
attempt is to translate.=E2=80=9D {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say =
{jImughmeH jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are =
not perfectly consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that =
when a {-meH} clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an =
action), the verb with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or =
object. The presence or absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when =
a {-meH} verb modifies a noun, it is far more common for there to be no =
subject or object implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH =
taj}).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Next, =
your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH} means =
=E2=80=9Ccause to form.=E2=80=9D To say, =E2=80=9CI cause to form=E2=80=9D=
is odd because it doesn=E2=80=99t have much meaning if there isn=E2=80=99=
t something that I am causing to form. You need an object. The prefix =
for =E2=80=9CI cause it to form=E2=80=9D is {vI-}, so I would have =
expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an option.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Similarly, going back =
earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. =E2=80=9CIn order that I =
translate it, I try,=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CI try with the purpose that I =
translate it.=E2=80=9D It sounds stilted in English only because I=E2=80=99=
m favoring something closer to a literal translation for teaching =
purposes. When we translate it, we usually make it more like English and =
say, =E2=80=9CI=E2=80=99ll try to translate it,=E2=80=9D which is =
grammatically very different from the Klingon because this is a case =
where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is =
perfectly formed, but probably doesn=E2=80=99t quite mean what you =
intended. It is a statement. =E2=80=9CYou help me.=E2=80=9D If you want =
it to be a command, there=E2=80=99s a different prefix for that: =
{HIQaH.} =E2=80=9CHelp me."</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
class=3D"">I hope this is helpful to you. Don=E2=80=99t feel even the =
slightest bit bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don=E2=80=99=
t expect to learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you trying. It =
is much better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit =
and never learn to walk.</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"">pItlh</div><div =
class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI'nuv</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <<a =
href=3D"mailto:maxim.sonin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">maxim.sonin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">"We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.<br class=3D"">
"loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.<br class=3D"">
choQaH.</p>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol=
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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