[100428] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] new vocabulary: theatres and auditoriums,
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (=?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?=)
Tue Mar 17 13:02:28 2015
In-Reply-To: <65C98D7D-811D-45E8-B8B3-517DDCF6486C@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 18:01:59 +0100
From: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIE3DvGxsZXI=?= <esperantist@gmail.com>
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Okrand himself is sometimes inconsistent with the spaces between numbers
and nouns referring to past or present time units or combinations of
smaller and higher numbers in general. In cannon, we have:
leS: {cha'leS}, {loSleS}
Hu': {wejHu'} vs. {wej Hu'}
wen: {loSwen}
waQ: {wa'waQ}
ben: {loSmaH ben}, {cha'vatlh ben}, {cha' vatlh ben}(!), {vagh SanID ben},
{chorgh ben}, {'op ben}
nem: {wejnem}
So, I think it's okay to add or leave spaces in these cases.
- Andr=C3=A9
2015-03-17 17:52 GMT+01:00 <lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com>:
> Perhaps {HaSta=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pa=E2=80=99} is better for a m=
ovie theater. The size and
> significance of the screen itself is what marks a movie theater as
> different from a living room where one watches HBO. Just an idea, not an
> argument. Who knows whether or not Klingons have movie theaters? If they
> don=E2=80=99t, then the important issue is what term would best give them=
an idea
> of what we mean by a movie theater.
>
> While it=E2=80=99s true that Klingon is primarily a spoken language, and =
the
> romanized alphabet is a phonetic representation of what is spoken (which =
is
> why it took years for Okrand to start using punctuation, primarily becaus=
e
> he rarely wrote anything with enough words in it to require any), TKD did
> suggest that there was a difference between nouns in sequence and nouns r=
un
> together. It=E2=80=99s not necessarily a difference with a hard boundary,=
but
> basically nouns combined with no space form new words, and it seems
> remarkably out of character to do this for nouns that do not combine to
> form a common concept. Klingon isn=E2=80=99t German.
>
> So, {puchpa=E2=80=99} is more appropriate than {lojmIttI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=
=99nuvpa=E2=80=99}, since the
> former is a generic type of room and the latter borders on being a proper
> noun. I=E2=80=99ve always had the sense that all of these started out as =
discrete
> words that, over time, as they appear next to each other a lot, eventuall=
y
> lose the space or spaces between them. So, the words we have that are sti=
ll
> separate, like {=E2=80=98uQ pa=E2=80=99} are likely newer ones or less co=
mmon ones, so that
> they haven=E2=80=99t yet gone through the language process of fossilizati=
on and
> compression to lose the space.
>
> I have, myself, argued in the past that Okrand is the guy who decides
> which of these gets the space and which doesn=E2=80=99t, and that the res=
t of us
> shouldn=E2=80=99t monkey with it all that much. I still think that=E2=80=
=99s true, though
> I=E2=80=99m not likely to be all that bothered by compression of common t=
erms. For
> instance, I think it=E2=80=99s fine to say {cha=E2=80=99leS} or {loSHu=E2=
=80=99} or {cha=E2=80=99 leS} or
> {loS Hu=E2=80=99} and may myself do it different ways on different days, =
depending
> on my mood.
>
> But if anybody gets in my face demanding that I recognize a particular
> personal favorite pile of nouns with no spaces in between, if it doesn=E2=
=80=99t
> appear in canon, they won=E2=80=99t get a lot of sympathy from me. I don=
=E2=80=99t really
> care all that much; certainly not enough to update my lexicon with
> non-canon terms.
>
> lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
> Retired Door Repair Guy
>
> > On Mar 17, 2015, at 10:30 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 16 March 2015 at 22:38, Lieven <levinius@gmx.de> wrote:
> >> Cool - where's the like button? ;-)
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure we can use {muchpa'} as well for going to the "movie
> >> theatre".
> >
> > ghaytan {HaSta muchpa'} luyaj tlhInganpu'
> >
> >> And even if these are "only" compound nouns of words we already know, =
at
> >> least we have canon definitions for these now.
> >>
> >> BTW, it makes me wonder again why there's a space in one word, and non=
e
> in
> >> the other, but then I remember Okrand telling me that the Klingon
> language
> >> has always been intended to be a spoken language, and he didn't really
> care
> >> ybout space or no space in compound words.
> >
> > We don't know how Klingons would write these words, but there is some
> > consistency to attaching {pa'} to types of rooms in the Latin
> > transcription: {jolpa'}, {Qulpa'}, {vutpa'}, {mebpa'}, {puchpa'}, and
> > now {muchpa'}. However, {'uQ pa'} is the exception, although that was
> > given as an ad hoc example. On the other hand, consider that English
> > has "bathroom" (one word), but "living room" (two words). There's no
> > reason Klingon has to be consistent in having/not having a space
> > before {-pa'}.
> >
> > On 17 March 2015 at 02:02, nIqolay Q <niqolay0@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Is this basically confirmation that "much" is also a noun for
> >> "performance"? (Or, at least, that it has the same breadth of meaning
> >> that "presentation" does in the phrase "feature presentation"?) I
> >> always suspected as much. (Err, so to speak.)
> >
> > {much} v. present, perform (music)
> > {much} n. presentation
> >
> > I think there was already a strong case based on the definitions that
> > the noun sense of {much} means anything which can be the object of the
> > verb {much}. The new evidence corroborates this.
> >
> > --
> > De'vID
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Okrand himself is sometimes inconsistent with th=
e spaces between numbers and nouns referring to past or present time units =
or combinations of smaller and higher numbers in general. In cannon, we hav=
e:<br></div><br>leS: {cha'leS}, {loSleS}<br></div>Hu': {wejHu'}=
vs. {wej Hu'}<div>wen: {loSwen}<br></div><div>waQ: {wa'waQ}<br></d=
iv><div>ben: {loSmaH ben}, {cha'vatlh ben}, {cha' vatlh ben}(!), {v=
agh SanID ben}, {chorgh ben}, {'op ben}<br></div><div>nem: {wejnem}<br>=
<br></div><div>So, I think it's okay to add or leave spaces in these ca=
ses.<br></div><div>- Andr=C3=A9<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2015-03-17 17:52 GMT+01:00 <span dir=3D"ltr"=
><<a href=3D"mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lojmitt=
i7wi7nuv@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Perhap=
s {HaSta=E2=80=99=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 pa=E2=80=99} is better for a movie the=
ater. The size and significance of the screen itself is what marks a movie =
theater as different from a living room where one watches HBO. Just an idea=
, not an argument. Who knows whether or not Klingons have movie theaters? I=
f they don=E2=80=99t, then the important issue is what term would best give=
them an idea of what we mean by a movie theater.<br>
<br>
While it=E2=80=99s true that Klingon is primarily a spoken language, and th=
e romanized alphabet is a phonetic representation of what is spoken (which =
is why it took years for Okrand to start using punctuation, primarily becau=
se he rarely wrote anything with enough words in it to require any), TKD di=
d suggest that there was a difference between nouns in sequence and nouns r=
un together. It=E2=80=99s not necessarily a difference with a hard boundary=
, but basically nouns combined with no space form new words, and it seems r=
emarkably out of character to do this for nouns that do not combine to form=
a common concept. Klingon isn=E2=80=99t German.<br>
<br>
So, {puchpa=E2=80=99} is more appropriate than {lojmIttI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=
=99nuvpa=E2=80=99}, since the former is a generic type of room and the latt=
er borders on being a proper noun. I=E2=80=99ve always had the sense that a=
ll of these started out as discrete words that, over time, as they appear n=
ext to each other a lot, eventually lose the space or spaces between them. =
So, the words we have that are still separate, like {=E2=80=98uQ pa=E2=80=
=99} are likely newer ones or less common ones, so that they haven=E2=80=99=
t yet gone through the language process of fossilization and compression to=
lose the space.<br>
<br>
I have, myself, argued in the past that Okrand is the guy who decides which=
of these gets the space and which doesn=E2=80=99t, and that the rest of us=
shouldn=E2=80=99t monkey with it all that much. I still think that=E2=80=
=99s true, though I=E2=80=99m not likely to be all that bothered by compres=
sion of common terms. For instance, I think it=E2=80=99s fine to say {cha=
=E2=80=99leS} or {loSHu=E2=80=99} or {cha=E2=80=99 leS} or {loS Hu=E2=80=99=
} and may myself do it different ways on different days, depending on my mo=
od.<br>
<br>
But if anybody gets in my face demanding that I recognize a particular pers=
onal favorite pile of nouns with no spaces in between, if it doesn=E2=80=99=
t appear in canon, they won=E2=80=99t get a lot of sympathy from me. I don=
=E2=80=99t really care all that much; certainly not enough to update my lex=
icon with non-canon terms.<br>
<br>
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh<br>
Retired Door Repair Guy<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
> On Mar 17, 2015, at 10:30 AM, De'vID <<a href=3D"mailto:de.vid.=
jonpin@gmail.com">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> On 16 March 2015 at 22:38, Lieven <<a href=3D"mailto:levinius@gmx.d=
e">levinius@gmx.de</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Cool - where's the like button?=C2=A0 ;-)<br>
>><br>
>> I'm pretty sure we can use {muchpa'} as well for going to =
the "movie<br>
>> theatre".<br>
><br>
> ghaytan {HaSta muchpa'} luyaj tlhInganpu'<br>
><br>
>> And even if these are "only" compound nouns of words we =
already know, at<br>
>> least we have canon definitions for these now.<br>
>><br>
>> BTW, it makes me wonder again why there's a space in one word,=
and none in<br>
>> the other, but then I remember Okrand telling me that the Klingon =
language<br>
>> has always been intended to be a spoken language, and he didn'=
t really care<br>
>> ybout space or no space in compound words.<br>
><br>
> We don't know how Klingons would write these words, but there is s=
ome<br>
> consistency to attaching {pa'} to types of rooms in the Latin<br>
> transcription: {jolpa'}, {Qulpa'}, {vutpa'}, {mebpa'},=
{puchpa'}, and<br>
> now {muchpa'}. However, {'uQ pa'} is the exception, althou=
gh that was<br>
> given as an ad hoc example. On the other hand, consider that English<b=
r>
> has "bathroom" (one word), but "living room" (two =
words). There's no<br>
> reason Klingon has to be consistent in having/not having a space<br>
> before {-pa'}.<br>
><br>
> On 17 March 2015 at 02:02, nIqolay Q <<a href=3D"mailto:niqolay0@gm=
ail.com">niqolay0@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> Is this basically confirmation that "much" is also a nou=
n for<br>
>> "performance"? (Or, at least, that it has the same bread=
th of meaning<br>
>> that "presentation" does in the phrase "feature pre=
sentation"?) I<br>
>> always suspected as much. (Err, so to speak.)<br>
><br>
> {much} v. present, perform (music)<br>
> {much} n. presentation<br>
><br>
> I think there was already a strong case based on the definitions that<=
br>
> the noun sense of {much} means anything which can be the object of the=
<br>
> verb {much}. The new evidence corroborates this.<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> De'vID<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br>
> <a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
> <a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=
=3D"_blank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol" target=3D"_bl=
ank">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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