[100192] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Steven Boozer)
Thu Jan 29 10:25:47 2015
From: Steven Boozer <sboozer@uchicago.edu>
To: "tlhingan-hol@kli.org" <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 15:25:35 +0000
In-Reply-To: <F52986192E9FE346B0B7EF3D6F98E8771246DA6F@EXDB3.ug.kth.se>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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As Felix explained {Hem} means "be proud" (intransitive), not "be proud OF =
(something/someone)" (transitive). (You have to watch out for those prepos=
itions in the dictionary!) Here is how Okrand has used {Hem}:
Hem tlhIngan Segh 'ej maHemtaH 'e' wIHech
Klingons are a proud race, and we intend to go on being proud. (TKW)
tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH.
He wears it proudly as a reminder of his heritage. (S20)
Hem; tlhIngan rur
proud as a Klingon (KGT; common simile)
lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb
an equal number of proud Klingons [accompany him] (PB)
naDev Sughompu' 'ej Qo'noS SuvwI'pu' Hem tlhIH
All of you here, proud warriors of Kronos (PB)
qanjIt qan vemmoH moratlh, vavDaj ghaH qanjIt'e' puj tIqDu'Daj 'ach Hem
Morath wakes his father, the old Kanjit, his hearts weak, but proud. (P=
B)
maQ 'oH HemHa'choH 'ej cho'choH moratlh
The signal for Morath to lose his pride and claim a throne. (PB)
HolQeD 12.3 p.9: To be {Hem} "proud", however, is quite admirable and does=
not carry any connotations of arrogance as the Federation Standard words "=
proud" and "pride" sometimes do. The noun {'eDjen} refers to a person who i=
s arrogant or haughty.
BTW the noun "pride" seems to be {le'yo'}:
le'yo'raj nIHlu'ta'mo' penoD jatlh qeylIS, woQ le'yo' je 'aghbej ghaH
And Kahless spoke to them ... filled with pride and authority, about ave=
nging
their stolen pride (PB)
>> : I passed a hard exam. I am proud of myself.
To allow those descriptive (or "stative") verbs to take an object you gener=
ally add the suffix {-moH} (become) as Felix explained. But when Klingon d=
oesn't have the right verb - or doesn't have it in the right form - there's=
an easier way to translate and that's by recasting the sentence to avoid t=
he problem: "I passed a hard exam; I am proud." Sometimes you may tag th=
e dependent clause with {-mo'} "because" as Felix showed you.
Now Klingon doesn't have a noun "test", but it does have the verbs {chov} "=
assess, evaluate, test", {waH} "try out, test, use experimentally", {tob} "=
test conclusively" and {Daj} "test inconclusively". So one could say,
luchovpu'. jIHem.
They have tested/evaluated me. I am proud.
luchovpu'mo' jIHem.
Because they have tested/evaluated me I'm proud.
lutobpu'. jIHem.
They have tested me conclusively, I'm proud.
lutobpu'mo' jIHem.
Because they have tested me conclusively, I'm proud.
And speaking of being proud of oneself, Klingon does have three more stativ=
e verbs: {jeQ} "be self-confident", {jaq} "be bold" and {nguq} "be arrogan=
t, haughty, conceited".
From: Felix Malmenbeck [mailto:felixm@kth.se]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 7:02 AM
Consider what role you intend for jIH to have in this sentence. Is it as th=
e object of the sentence? In that case, you need to make sure you have the =
right prefix and suffix.
In this case, because both the subject and the object are {jIH}, the correc=
t choice would be *jIHem'egh* ("I proud myself").
However, I believe it's quite widely accepted that {Hem} does not take an o=
bject. To say "I'm proud of myself.", try to ask yourself "What does 'of' m=
ean in this case?"
English uses the same preposition for a lot of different purposes. "of" can=
meaning "belonging to", "relating to", "coming from", "due to", "because o=
f", and a great many other things.
I think the "of" in this case could be interpreted as "due to" or "because =
of". So, perhaps:
* {jIHmo' jIHem.}
"I am proud because of me."
That may be a bit unspecific, though. Consider:
* {chavwIjmo' jIHem.}
"I am proud because of my achievement."
* {jIQapta'mo' jIHem.}
"I am proud because I have succeeded."
Also, consider using -moH ("cause"):
* {jIHem'eghmoH.}
"I make myself proud."
* {jIHem'eghmoHta'.}
"I've (intentionally and successfully) made myself proud."
* {muHemmoH chavmeywIj.}
"My achievements make me proud."
________________________________
From: Maxim Sonin [maxim.sonin@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2015 13:13
Another beginners question
Can you say: "jIH jIHem" as "I am proud of myself"
For example: I passed a hard exam. I am proud of myself.
Would this, if grammatically correct, be considered ignorant?
[
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As Felix explained {Hem} me=
ans “be proud” (intransitive), not “be proud OF (somethin=
g/someone)” (transitive). (You have to watch out for those prep=
ositions in
the dictionary!) Here is how Okrand has used {Hem}:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Hem tlhIngan S=
egh 'ej maHemtaH 'e' wIHech
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Klingons =
are a proud race, and we intend to go on being proud. (TKW)<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
tuQtaHvIS Hem. ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> He wears =
it proudly as a reminder of his heritage. (S20)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
Hem; tlhIngan rur <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> proud as =
a Klingon (KGT; common simile)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
lutlhej tlhInganpu' Hem mI' nIb <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> an equal =
number of proud Klingons [accompany him] (PB)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
naDev Sughompu' 'ej Qo'noS SuvwI'pu' Hem tlhIH <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> All of yo=
u here, proud warriors of Kronos (PB)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
qanjIt qan vemmoH moratlh, vavDaj ghaH qanjIt'e' puj tIqDu'Daj =
'ach Hem <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Morath wa=
kes his father, the old Kanjit, his hearts weak, but proud. (PB)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> maQ 'oH HemHa'=
choH 'ej cho'choH moratlh
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> The signa=
l for Morath to lose his pride and claim a throne. (PB)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">HolQeD 12.3 p.9: To b=
e {Hem} “proud”, however, is quite admirable and does not carry=
any connotations of arrogance as the Federation Standard words “prou=
d” and
“pride” sometimes do. The noun {'eDjen} refers to a person who=
is arrogant or haughty.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D">BTW the noun “pride” seems to be {le&#=
8217;yo’}:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> le'yo'raj nIHl=
u'ta'mo' penoD jatlh qeylIS, woQ le'yo' je 'aghbej ghaH
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> And Kahle=
ss spoke to them … filled with pride and authority, about avenging<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> their st=
olen pride (PB)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D">>>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">: I passed a hard exam. I am proud of my=
self.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">To allow those descriptive =
(or “stative”) verbs to take an object you generally add the su=
ffix {-moH} (become) as Felix explained. But when Klingon doesn’=
;t have
the right verb – or doesn’t have it in the right form - there&=
#8217;s an easier way to translate and that’s by recasting the senten=
ce to avoid the problem: “I passed a hard exam; I am prou=
d.” Sometimes you may tag the dependent clause with {-mo’=
} “because” as
Felix showed you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Now Klingon doesn’t h=
ave a noun “test”, but it does have the verbs {chov} “ass=
ess, evaluate, test”, {waH} "try out, test, use experimentally&q=
uot;, {tob} “test conclusively”
and {Daj} “test inconclusively”. So one could say, <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> luchovpu'. jIH=
em.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> They have tested/eva=
luated me. I am proud.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> luchovpu'mo’ &=
nbsp;jIHem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Because they have te=
sted/evaluated me I’m proud.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> lutobpu’. &nbs=
p; jIHem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> They have tested me =
conclusively, I’m proud.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> lutobpu'mo̵=
7; jIHem.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> Because they have te=
sted me conclusively, I’m proud.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">And speaking of being proud=
of oneself, Klingon does have three more stative verbs: {jeQ} “=
;be self-confident”, {jaq} “be bold” and {nguq} "be =
arrogant, haughty,
conceited". <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> Felix Ma=
lmenbeck [mailto:felixm@kth.se]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 29, 2015 7:02 AM<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blac=
k">Consider what role you intend for jIH to have in this sentence. Is it as=
the object of the sentence? In that case, you need to make
sure you have the right prefix and suffix.<br>
In this case, because both the subject and the object are {jIH}, the correc=
t choice would be *jIHem'egh* ("I proud myself").<br>
<br>
However, I believe it's quite widely accepted that {Hem} does not take an o=
bject. To say "I'm proud of myself.", try to ask yourself "W=
hat does 'of' mean in this case?"<br>
English uses the same preposition for a lot of different purposes. "of=
" can meaning "belonging to", "relating to", "=
;coming from", "due to", "because of", and a great=
many other things.<br>
<br>
I think the "of" in this case could be interpreted as "due t=
o" or "because of". So, perhaps:<br>
<br>
* {jIHmo' jIHem.}<br>
"I am proud because of me."<br>
<br>
That may be a bit unspecific, though. Consider:<br>
<br>
* {chavwIjmo' jIHem.}<br>
"I am proud because of my achievement."<br>
<br>
* {jIQapta'mo' jIHem.}<br>
"I am proud because I have succeeded."<br>
<br>
Also, consider using -moH ("cause"):<br>
<br>
* {jIHem'eghmoH.}<br>
"I make myself proud."<br>
<br>
* {jIHem'eghmoHta'.}<br>
"I've (intentionally and successfully) made myself proud."<br>
<br>
* {muHemmoH chavmeywIj.}<br>
"My achievements make me proud."<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
style=3D"color:black">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRpF895404">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:b=
lack">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tah=
oma","sans-serif";color:black"> Maxim Sonin [maxim.sonin@gma=
il.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 29, 2015 13:13<br>
</span><b><i><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"></span></i></b><span style=3D"co=
lor:#1F497D"><br>
</span><span style=3D"color:black">Another beginners question</span><span s=
tyle=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Can you say: "jIH jIHem" as "=
I am proud of myself"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">For example: I passed a hard exam. I am prou=
d of myself.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">Would this, if grammatically correct, be con=
sidered ignorant?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><b><i><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial",&quo=
t;sans-serif";color:#1F497D">[</span></i></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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