[100107] in tlhIngan-Hol
Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Klingon Word of the Day: pegh
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com)
Fri Jan 9 10:23:50 2015
From: lojmitti7wi7nuv@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2015 10:23:27 -0500
To: tlhIngan-Hol <tlhingan-hol@kli.org>
In-Reply-To: <CA+7zAmPVE0GKNkw7gvZJFLkphjzRvJA4DBbrd2tLB+ASro2NSA@mail.gmail.com>
Errors-To: tlhingan-hol-bounces@kli.org
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Replies below.
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh
Retired Door Repair Guy
> On Jan 9, 2015, at 4:41 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv:
>> I wish that Okrand and a publisher would provide The Compleat Klingon =
Dictionary, perhaps electronically so that we could have updates. =
Annotations. Examples of useage. Explicit commitment in the definition =
to allow or exclude direct objects.
>> It would place more of a burden on the author of the book than any =
centralized entity has taken on so far, but the truth is, this burden =
must be born somewhere, and in this case spreading the burden among more =
shoulders doesn=E2=80=99t make the burden born by each shoulder any =
lighter.
>=20
> I'm not Marc Okrand, but I do maintain {boQwI'}, which is basically
> exactly what you've just described.
Each of us maintains a dictionary that attempts to complete the =
materials provided to us by =
Paramount/ViaCom/whatever-the-current-corporate-structure-may-be. That =
you hand yours out doesn=E2=80=99t make it any more official or =
legitimate than the ones maintained by everyone else, since you are =
singularly the author, without the kind of feedback I got from the group =
when I maintained the New Words List.
> 1. It's electronic (though it's available only on Android, and with
> some effort on Windows, OS X, and Chrome OS).
This restriction alone makes it a non-starter. At least Lieven=E2=80=99s =
list is Web-based so that it is not platform-specific. I don=E2=80=99t =
use Windows or Android or ChromeOS devices, and I=E2=80=99m not alone. =
Do I have to go out and buy hardware that I don=E2=80=99t have any other =
use for so that I can use your software, since you=E2=80=99d like it to =
become the only standard lexicon? That=E2=80=99s cheeky.
I=E2=80=99ve kept my lexicon in MS Word, on Palm OS devices in a J-File =
database, in MS Access, in Bento, and now in TapForms. Each of these has =
been useful to me, and I could have shared them with those with the =
necessary hardware and software, but in all cases, it would have been a =
subset of the community. The New Words List was the compromise I made =
between Viacom=E2=80=99s legitimate copyright interests and truly =
sharable media. You=E2=80=99ve done good work with boQwI=E2=80=99, but =
you=E2=80=99ve begun to take yourself too seriously.
If your offering is not platform independent, and it doesn=E2=80=99t =
deal with the issue of copyrighted material, then you really shouldn=E2=80=
=99t be sharing it. You are creating a privileged subset of the speaking =
community who can benefit from your research without effort on their =
part, and without the necessity of buying the published materials that =
provide royalties for Marc Okrand and legitimate income for the =
publishers of his work. This is not as noble a result as you seem to =
think it is.
> 2. It's open source and updatable by anyone (although in practice only
> Lieven and I have made updates to the database).
If it=E2=80=99s updatable on independent platforms, then it=E2=80=99s =
not standardized.
> 3. It has annotations for part of speech and things like slang, body
> parts, etc., as well as links to other entries, related words, notes,
> and so on.
Good. Every lexicon should.
> 4. It has examples of usage.
> 5. It distinguishes between verb transitivity classes. Here are the
> verb transitivity annotations from the header file:
> part_of_speech =3D v (verb):
> ambi (ambitransitive): may be either i or t
> i (intransitive): must not take an object
> \ i_c: intransitive and confirmed
> is (int. and stative): of the form "to be =
(something)",
> can be used as an =
adjective
> t (transitive): may take an object
> \ t_c: transitive and confirmed
> pref: a verb prefix
> suff: a verb suffix
The problem here is that we don=E2=80=99t always know whether a word is =
transitive or not. We find out piecemeal. The glosses are frequently =
ambiguous, and different people interpret them differently. Sometimes =
canon adds evidence one way or the other, but there are a lot of Klingon =
words that have never been used in canon, and when new canon appears, it =
often surprises us. This is my whole point of frustration. The best we =
can do is guess, while collecting evidence one way or the other.
> I actually went through and annotated every single verb and looking
> for confirmation of its transitivity. See the history of that process
> here:
> https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/issues/detail?id=3D32 =
<https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/issues/detail?id=3D32>
Great. Many of us have made this effort. Sort of an extended interview =
with Maltz going over the entire vocabulary and getting him to commit to =
a level of definition he=E2=80=99s never shown any interest in =
accepting, our resources are limited.
> Here's the entry for {meQ}, as an example:
> =
https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/source/browse/KlingonAssistant=
/data/mem-08-m.xml
>=20
> <table name=3D"mem">
> <column name=3D"_id">20740</column>
> <column name=3D"entry_name">meQ</column>
> <column name=3D"part_of_speech">v:ambi</column>
> <column name=3D"definition">burn</column>
> <column name=3D"definition_de">brennen, verbrennen</column>
> <column name=3D"synonyms"></column>
> <column name=3D"antonyms"></column>
> <column name=3D"see_also">{mIQ:v}</column>
> <column name=3D"notes">If there is no object, then the subject is
> the thing burning, e.g., {meQtaHbogh qachDaq Suv qoH neH.:sen}[2] If
> there is an object, then the subject is burning the object, e.g.,
> {to'waQ meQ vutwI'.}[3] {meQ:v:nolink} can also be used adjectivally,
> e.g., {Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv tera'nganpu'@@Ha'DIbaH:n:1, -mey:n,
> meQ:v, Sop:v, 'e':n, tIv:v, tera'ngan:n, -pu':n}.[4]</column>
> <column name=3D"hidden_notes">In the sentence from {CK:src},
> {tIv:sen:nolink} should have been {lutIv:sen:nolink} since
> {tera'nganpu':n:nolink} is plural.</column>
> <column name=3D"components"></column>
> <column name=3D"examples"></column>
> <column name=3D"search_tags"></column>
> <column name=3D"source">[1] {TKD:src}, [2] {TKW p.111:src}, [3]
> {KGT p.191:src}, [4] {CK:src}</column>
> </table>
>=20
> You can also see the entries for {pegh} here:
> =
https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/source/browse/KlingonAssistant=
/data/mem-11-p.xml
>=20
> I don't consider it a burden in any way to maintain, but I do wish
> that more people would contribute. I think this is the sort of thing
> that the KLI ought to be maintaining. The role of being its maintainer
> fell upon me by accident: I originally wrote a relatively simple
> dictionary/grammar analyser app for myself. I showed it to some people
> at the Germany qepHom, and they asked me to share it with them, so I
> open-sourced it and put it on what was then the Android Market (now
> known as the Google Play Store). The next thing you know, people
> started sending me bug reports and feature requests, pointing out
> errors and typos, and so on. Now it's a pretty complete database of
> all canon Klingon words, and quite a few extended canon ones too.
I also accidentally found myself as maintainer of an official lexicon. =
At qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch (or maybe cha=E2=80=99DIch), I =
brought booklet-like printouts of The Annotated Klingon Dictionary, the =
MS Word document I was using at the time to maintain my personal =
lexicon. Others on the mailing list had shown interest in it, so I =
printed some extra copies, for people that I knew had already purchased =
all the copyrighted material available at the time.
Okrand saw it and was impressed. He said that he didn=E2=80=99t actually =
have a single word list, himself. He just had lots of notes on scraps of =
paper, and he used the published dictionary alongside these scraps of =
paper. He found it very useful to have one alphabetized list with =
sources noted, and exceptions marked (for differences between the =
English->Klingon and Klingon->English sides of the dictionary, as well =
as folding in the words from other sources than The Klingon Dictionary). =
He took one. To say I was surprised was an understatement.
I made a mistake, which he apparently caught, giving one definition to =
an adjacent word, and in one of his later lexicons (Klingon for the =
Galactic Traveler, I think), he listed my erroneous entry as an official =
definition. Suddenly, the language had another synonym. I was =
simultaneously embarrassed and honored by the entry. These are not =
commonly combined emotions.
So, from that, I was asked to create The New Words List, which I did =
with a lot of trepidation and forethought. I maintained it for a decade =
or so, until interpersonal politics within the group made it unrewarding =
for me to maintain my dedication to the task. I withdrew for a time and =
deleted the password to The New Words list from my encrypted lists of =
passwords. Time passed. I forgot the password as well.
I announced that I was not going to maintain the list any longer on this =
list and asked for someone else to take over. No one did. The list =
became obsolete. Upon my return later, I asked for the password to be =
reset so that I could take it over again when I returned and got no =
response. While I=E2=80=99ve never considered myself to own the lexicon =
=E2=80=94 I never used it myself because I created it out of the larger =
lexicon I maintained that had the copyrighted material in it that I did =
not feel that the KLI Website should contain. I maintained two separate =
lexicons: The one I used, and the one designed specifically for sharing.
I was willing to go back to maintaining the list, or hand it off to =
anyone else willing to responsibly manage the task. When neither =
suggestion received any support from the group, the New Words List =
essentially died. I don=E2=80=99t think that boQwI=E2=80=99 is an =
effective replacement. My first preference would be for someone else to =
take over the New Words List. It should either be updated or removed =
from the Web site. Leaving it there, obsolete is a disservice to the =
community. If no one wishes to take it over, I=E2=80=99d be willing to =
take it back, though it will require a lot of time I don=E2=80=99t =
especially have, and it would be a long time before the list was =
accurately current, if this were the solution.
The advantages of the New Words List:
1. Web-based, centralized, accessible to all.
2. Geared to being a supplement to copyrighted material instead of =
replacing that material, allowing any new person to build their own =
lexicon with their own tools of choice.
3. Organized both alphabetically for direct use by those who choose to =
use it as a second Appendix to TKD, and also by date, so that people can =
update their own lexicons easily, whenever they choose.
Since it lists sources and assumes that people are buying the source =
material, it does not pretend to carry more authority than it actually =
carries, and since the full mailing list has access to it, I got =
feedback on its maintenance and balanced the interests of those =
commenting with the interests in consistency across time. New entries in =
the list should not be of a different nature than old entries in the =
list.
I respect the work you=E2=80=99ve done. I can certainly empathize with =
the effort you=E2=80=99ve put into it. I can=E2=80=99t support it =
becoming the new Complete Lexicon. It=E2=80=99s not freely accessible to =
all, and it seeks to replace everyone=E2=80=99s lexicon instead of =
providing people with the resources to create their own, supplementing =
copyrighted materials that all students of Klingon should own.
> The only major limitation is that it isn't available on iOS or
> accessible through the web. Someone has actually volunteered to port
> it to be a web app, and I'm investigating porting to iOS.
>=20
> Anthony Appleyard:
>> Ditto. We need a publicly-accessible source of ALL information about =
Klingon, all together in one place. With any major Earth language that =
would be done. Currently, some of it is in this book, some is in that =
book, some is revealed here and there at qepmey, bits all over the =
place.
>=20
> One issue with gathering all information about Klingon into a
> publicly-accessible source is that most of those sources are
> copyrighted. I have been asked to include a lot more grammar help in
> {boQwI'}, or to include what would effectively be the grammar sections
> of TKD, but I've refrained from doing so. People have also asked me to
> put the explanations of the sentences from KGT and TKW into the
> entries for those sentences, but what the entries say right now is
> that the sentence is slang, or an idiom, or archaic, or whatever, with
> a pointer to look to page so-and-so of KGT or TKW for more
> information. A number of people have remarked to me that {boQwI'}
> would be a lot more useful as a learning tool (rather than just a
> reference tool) if it was more "complete", but the decision to leave
> out certain things is deliberate, since I don't want to do anything
> which might be seen as potentially negatively affecting Marc Okrand's
> income (I assume he earns royalties for his books/tapes/CDs) or
> CBS/Paramount's profits. For {boQwI'} to be truly useful, you need to
> own most of the official Klingon-language products (and thus have paid
> Okrand and CBS/Paramount), and that's deliberate.
Good. This is well thought-out. Another issue that people seem blind to =
is that if you cross-reference EVERYTHING and put in lots of canon and =
commentary, then searches tend to pull up far too many false results. A =
dictionary should be a dictionary. A grammar book should be a grammar =
book. A tutorial should be a tutorial. We are not replacing TKD here. =
One size does not fit all. Each task is best done with a carefully =
limited scope.
People would like to have a servant who simply translates everything for =
them. We should feel no responsibility for providing them with it. =
Klingon is not for sissies. Make your own lexicon. We should provide =
resources pointing back to copyrighted sources that makes the creation =
of that lexicon possible and effective. If Viacom wanted Klingon to be =
easy to learn and widely accepted, they wouldn=E2=80=99t push quite so =
hard at owning all things Klingon. So, we all compromise, and we all =
evolve, balanced in our compromises.
> OTOH, nothing stops any volunteers from filling out the entries in the
> database the way that {meQ} has been done as shown above. There are
> plenty of entries for which there exist canon examples, or
> explanations of their usage in HolQeD or elsewhere, which are just
> missing from those entries.
And nothing stops volunteers from taking over The New Words List. =
Wishing volunteers existed doesn=E2=80=99t, however, bend the will of =
the masses.
> --=20
> De'vID
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol@kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
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class=3D""><div class=3D"">Replies below.</div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">
lojmIt tI=E2=80=99wI=E2=80=99 nuv =E2=80=98utlh<div class=3D"">Retired =
Door Repair Guy</div>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 9, 2015, at 4:41 AM, De'vID <<a =
href=3D"mailto:de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">de.vid.jonpin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">lojmIt tI'wI' =
nuv:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I wish that =
Okrand and a publisher would provide The Compleat Klingon Dictionary, =
perhaps electronically so that we could have updates. Annotations. =
Examples of useage. Explicit commitment in the definition to allow or =
exclude direct objects.<br class=3D"">It would place more of a burden on =
the author of the book than any centralized entity has taken on so far, =
but the truth is, this burden must be born somewhere, and in this case =
spreading the burden among more shoulders doesn=E2=80=99t make the =
burden born by each shoulder any lighter.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">I'm not Marc Okrand, but I do maintain {boQwI'}, which is =
basically<br class=3D"">exactly what you've just described.<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Each of us =
maintains a dictionary that attempts to complete the materials provided =
to us by =
Paramount/ViaCom/whatever-the-current-corporate-structure-may-be. That =
you hand yours out doesn=E2=80=99t make it any more official or =
legitimate than the ones maintained by everyone else, since you are =
singularly the author, without the kind of feedback I got from the group =
when I maintained the New Words List.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1. It's electronic (though it's =
available only on Android, and with<br class=3D"">some effort on =
Windows, OS X, and Chrome OS).<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This restriction alone makes it a non-starter. At =
least Lieven=E2=80=99s list is Web-based so that it is not =
platform-specific. I don=E2=80=99t use Windows or Android or ChromeOS =
devices, and I=E2=80=99m not alone. Do I have to go out and buy hardware =
that I don=E2=80=99t have any other use for so that I can use your =
software, since you=E2=80=99d like it to become the only standard =
lexicon? That=E2=80=99s cheeky.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=
=99ve kept my lexicon in MS Word, on Palm OS devices in a J-File =
database, in MS Access, in Bento, and now in TapForms. Each of these has =
been useful to me, and I could have shared them with those with the =
necessary hardware and software, but in all cases, it would have been a =
subset of the community. The New Words List was the compromise I made =
between Viacom=E2=80=99s legitimate copyright interests and truly =
sharable media. You=E2=80=99ve done good work with boQwI=E2=80=99, but =
you=E2=80=99ve begun to take yourself too seriously.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If your offering is not platform independent, and =
it doesn=E2=80=99t deal with the issue of copyrighted material, then you =
really shouldn=E2=80=99t be sharing it. You are creating a privileged =
subset of the speaking community who can benefit from your research =
without effort on their part, and without the necessity of buying the =
published materials that provide royalties for Marc Okrand and =
legitimate income for the publishers of his work. This is not as noble a =
result as you seem to think it is.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">2. It's open source and =
updatable by anyone (although in practice only<br class=3D"">Lieven and =
I have made updates to the database).<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If it=E2=80=99=
s updatable on independent platforms, then it=E2=80=99s not =
standardized.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">3. It has annotations for part of speech and =
things like slang, body<br class=3D"">parts, etc., as well as links to =
other entries, related words, notes,<br class=3D"">and so on.<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Good. Every =
lexicon should.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">4. It has examples of usage.<br class=3D"">5. =
It distinguishes between verb transitivity classes. Here are the<br =
class=3D"">verb transitivity annotations from the header file:<br =
class=3D""> part_of_speech =3D v (verb):<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; ambi =
(ambitransitive): may be either i or t<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; i =
(intransitive): must not take an object<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; \ i_c: =
intransitive and confirmed<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; is (int. and =
stative): of the form "to be (something)",<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; &nbs=
p; =
can be used as an =
adjective<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; t =
(transitive): may take an object<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; \ t_c: =
transitive and confirmed<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; pref: a verb =
prefix<br class=3D""> =
&n=
bsp; suff: a verb =
suffix<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The=
problem here is that we don=E2=80=99t always know whether a word is =
transitive or not. We find out piecemeal. The glosses are frequently =
ambiguous, and different people interpret them differently. Sometimes =
canon adds evidence one way or the other, but there are a lot of Klingon =
words that have never been used in canon, and when new canon appears, it =
often surprises us. This is my whole point of frustration. The best we =
can do is guess, while collecting evidence one way or the =
other.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I actually went through and annotated every single verb and =
looking<br class=3D"">for confirmation of its transitivity. See the =
history of that process<br class=3D"">here:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/issues/detail?id=3D32"=
=
class=3D"">https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/issues/detail?id=3D=
32</a><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Great. Many of us have made this effort. Sort of =
an extended interview with Maltz going over the entire vocabulary and =
getting him to commit to a level of definition he=E2=80=99s never shown =
any interest in accepting, our resources are limited.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Here's =
the entry for {meQ}, as an example:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/source/browse/KlingonA=
ssistant/data/mem-08-m.xml" =
class=3D"">https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/source/browse/Kling=
onAssistant/data/mem-08-m.xml</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
<table name=3D"mem"><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"_id">20740</column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"entry_name">meQ</column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"part_of_speech">v:ambi</column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"definition">burn</column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"definition_de">brennen, verbrennen</column><br =
class=3D""> <column =
name=3D"synonyms"></column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"antonyms"></column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"see_also">{mIQ:v}</column><br class=3D""> =
<column name=3D"notes">If there is =
no object, then the subject is<br class=3D"">the thing burning, e.g., =
{meQtaHbogh qachDaq Suv qoH neH.:sen}[2] If<br class=3D"">there is =
an object, then the subject is burning the object, e.g.,<br =
class=3D"">{to'waQ meQ vutwI'.}[3] {meQ:v:nolink} can also be used =
adjectivally,<br class=3D"">e.g., {Ha'DIbaHmey meQ Sop 'e' tIv =
tera'nganpu'@@Ha'DIbaH:n:1, -mey:n,<br class=3D"">meQ:v, Sop:v, 'e':n, =
tIv:v, tera'ngan:n, -pu':n}.[4]</column><br class=3D""> =
<column name=3D"hidden_notes">In the =
sentence from {CK:src},<br class=3D"">{tIv:sen:nolink} should have been =
{lutIv:sen:nolink} since<br class=3D"">{tera'nganpu':n:nolink} is =
plural.</column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"components"></column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"examples"></column><br class=3D""> =
<column =
name=3D"search_tags"></column><br class=3D""> =
<column name=3D"source">[1] =
{TKD:src}, [2] {TKW p.111:src}, [3]<br class=3D"">{KGT p.191:src}, [4] =
{CK:src}</column><br class=3D""> =
</table><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">You can =
also see the entries for {pegh} here:<br =
class=3D"">https://code.google.com/p/klingon-assistant/source/browse/Kling=
onAssistant/data/mem-11-p.xml<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I don't =
consider it a burden in any way to maintain, but I do wish<br =
class=3D"">that more people would contribute. I think this is the sort =
of thing<br class=3D"">that the KLI ought to be maintaining. The role of =
being its maintainer<br class=3D"">fell upon me by accident: I =
originally wrote a relatively simple<br class=3D"">dictionary/grammar =
analyser app for myself. I showed it to some people<br class=3D"">at the =
Germany qepHom, and they asked me to share it with them, so I<br =
class=3D"">open-sourced it and put it on what was then the Android =
Market (now<br class=3D"">known as the Google Play Store). The next =
thing you know, people<br class=3D"">started sending me bug reports and =
feature requests, pointing out<br class=3D"">errors and typos, and so =
on. Now it's a pretty complete database of<br class=3D"">all canon =
Klingon words, and quite a few extended canon ones too.<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I also =
accidentally found myself as maintainer of an official lexicon. At =
qep=E2=80=99a=E2=80=99 wa=E2=80=99DIch (or maybe cha=E2=80=99DIch), I =
brought booklet-like printouts of The Annotated Klingon Dictionary, the =
MS Word document I was using at the time to maintain my personal =
lexicon. Others on the mailing list had shown interest in it, so I =
printed some extra copies, for people that I knew had already purchased =
all the copyrighted material available at the time.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Okrand saw it and was impressed. He said that he =
didn=E2=80=99t actually have a single word list, himself. He just had =
lots of notes on scraps of paper, and he used the published dictionary =
alongside these scraps of paper. He found it very useful to have one =
alphabetized list with sources noted, and exceptions marked (for =
differences between the English->Klingon and Klingon->English =
sides of the dictionary, as well as folding in the words from other =
sources than The Klingon Dictionary). He took one. To say I was =
surprised was an understatement.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
made a mistake, which he apparently caught, giving one definition to an =
adjacent word, and in one of his later lexicons (Klingon for the =
Galactic Traveler, I think), he listed my erroneous entry as an official =
definition. Suddenly, the language had another synonym. I was =
simultaneously embarrassed and honored by the entry. These are not =
commonly combined emotions.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>So, from =
that, I was asked to create The New Words List, which I did with a lot =
of trepidation and forethought. I maintained it for a decade or so, =
until interpersonal politics within the group made it unrewarding for me =
to maintain my dedication to the task. I withdrew for a time and deleted =
the password to The New Words list from my encrypted lists of passwords. =
Time passed. I forgot the password as well.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I announced that I was not going to maintain the =
list any longer on this list and asked for someone else to take over. No =
one did. The list became obsolete. Upon my return later, I asked for the =
password to be reset so that I could take it over again when I returned =
and got no response. While I=E2=80=99ve never considered myself to own =
the lexicon =E2=80=94 I never used it myself because I created it out of =
the larger lexicon I maintained that had the copyrighted material in it =
that I did not feel that the KLI Website should contain. I maintained =
two separate lexicons: The one I used, and the one designed specifically =
for sharing.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I was willing to go =
back to maintaining the list, or hand it off to anyone else willing to =
responsibly manage the task. When neither suggestion received any =
support from the group, the New Words List essentially died. I don=E2=80=99=
t think that boQwI=E2=80=99 is an effective replacement. My first =
preference would be for someone else to take over the New Words List. It =
should either be updated or removed from the Web site. Leaving it there, =
obsolete is a disservice to the community. If no one wishes to take it =
over, I=E2=80=99d be willing to take it back, though it will require a =
lot of time I don=E2=80=99t especially have, and it would be a long time =
before the list was accurately current, if this were the =
solution.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The advantages of the New =
Words List:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>1. Web-based, =
centralized, accessible to all.</div><div>2. Geared to being a =
supplement to copyrighted material instead of replacing that material, =
allowing any new person to build their own lexicon with their own tools =
of choice.</div><div>3. Organized both alphabetically for direct use by =
those who choose to use it as a second Appendix to TKD, and also by =
date, so that people can update their own lexicons easily, whenever they =
choose.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Since it lists sources and =
assumes that people are buying the source material, it does not pretend =
to carry more authority than it actually carries, and since the full =
mailing list has access to it, I got feedback on its maintenance and =
balanced the interests of those commenting with the interests in =
consistency across time. New entries in the list should not be of a =
different nature than old entries in the list.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I respect the work you=E2=80=99ve done. I can =
certainly empathize with the effort you=E2=80=99ve put into it. I =
can=E2=80=99t support it becoming the new Complete Lexicon. It=E2=80=99s =
not freely accessible to all, and it seeks to replace everyone=E2=80=99s =
lexicon instead of providing people with the resources to create their =
own, supplementing copyrighted materials that all students of Klingon =
should own.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The only major limitation is that it isn't available on iOS =
or<br class=3D"">accessible through the web. Someone has actually =
volunteered to port<br class=3D"">it to be a web app, and I'm =
investigating porting to iOS.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Anthony =
Appleyard:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Ditto. We =
need a publicly-accessible source of ALL information about Klingon, all =
together in one place. With any major Earth language that would be done. =
Currently, some of it is in this book, some is in that book, some is =
revealed here and there at qepmey, bits all over the place.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">One issue with gathering all =
information about Klingon into a<br class=3D"">publicly-accessible =
source is that most of those sources are<br class=3D"">copyrighted. I =
have been asked to include a lot more grammar help in<br =
class=3D"">{boQwI'}, or to include what would effectively be the grammar =
sections<br class=3D"">of TKD, but I've refrained from doing so. People =
have also asked me to<br class=3D"">put the explanations of the =
sentences from KGT and TKW into the<br class=3D"">entries for those =
sentences, but what the entries say right now is<br class=3D"">that the =
sentence is slang, or an idiom, or archaic, or whatever, with<br =
class=3D"">a pointer to look to page so-and-so of KGT or TKW for more<br =
class=3D"">information. A number of people have remarked to me that =
{boQwI'}<br class=3D"">would be a lot more useful as a learning tool =
(rather than just a<br class=3D"">reference tool) if it was more =
"complete", but the decision to leave<br class=3D"">out certain things =
is deliberate, since I don't want to do anything<br class=3D"">which =
might be seen as potentially negatively affecting Marc Okrand's<br =
class=3D"">income (I assume he earns royalties for his books/tapes/CDs) =
or<br class=3D"">CBS/Paramount's profits. For {boQwI'} to be truly =
useful, you need to<br class=3D"">own most of the official =
Klingon-language products (and thus have paid<br class=3D"">Okrand and =
CBS/Paramount), and that's deliberate.<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Good. This =
is well thought-out. Another issue that people seem blind to is that if =
you cross-reference EVERYTHING and put in lots of canon and commentary, =
then searches tend to pull up far too many false results. A dictionary =
should be a dictionary. A grammar book should be a grammar book. A =
tutorial should be a tutorial. We are not replacing TKD here. One size =
does not fit all. Each task is best done with a carefully limited =
scope.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>People would like to have a =
servant who simply translates everything for them. We should feel no =
responsibility for providing them with it. Klingon is not for sissies. =
Make your own lexicon. We should provide resources pointing back to =
copyrighted sources that makes the creation of that lexicon possible and =
effective. If Viacom wanted Klingon to be easy to learn and widely =
accepted, they wouldn=E2=80=99t push quite so hard at owning all things =
Klingon. So, we all compromise, and we all evolve, balanced in our =
compromises.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
class=3D"">OTOH, nothing stops any volunteers from filling out the =
entries in the<br class=3D"">database the way that {meQ} has been done =
as shown above. There are<br class=3D"">plenty of entries for which =
there exist canon examples, or<br class=3D"">explanations of their usage =
in HolQeD or elsewhere, which are just<br class=3D"">missing from those =
entries.<br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>And nothing stops volunteers from taking over The =
New Words List. Wishing volunteers existed doesn=E2=80=99t, however, =
bend the will of the masses.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
class=3D""><div class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">De'vID<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Tlhingan-hol@kli.org" =
class=3D"">Tlhingan-hol@kli.org</a><br =
class=3D"">http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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