[7103] in APO-L
Forwarded
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Randy Finder)
Sun Oct 31 21:58:22 1993
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1993 21:57:00 EDT
Reply-To: Randy Finder <NARAHT@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
From: Randy Finder <NARAHT@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>
To: Multiple recipients of list APO-L <APO-L%PURCCVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu>
From: IN%"waltoml%WKUVX1.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU" "Settummanque, the bla
ckeagle" 30-OCT-1993 03:00:44.20
To: IN%"NARAHT@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU"
CC: IN%"waltoml%WKUVX1.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU"
Subj: RE: APO & BSA
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From: "Settummanque, the blackeagle"
<waltoml%WKUVX1.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: RE: APO & BSA
To: NARAHT@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU
Cc: waltoml%WKUVX1.bitnet@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU
Message-id: <00974C4F.69C0C2FD.22342@WKUVX1.BITNET>
(Randy...please forward this to the APO-L for me...I am experimenting with a
new set of software and it won't do what I told it to do in MAIL. So, if you
would please....thanks !)
From: Randy Finder <NARAHT@DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU>
Subject: APO & BSA
Brother Randy writes:
>One entire segment of the rec.scouting FAQ deals with BSA & GSUSA membership
>policies relative to The three Gs (Girls, God and Gays)
>
>This is sort of a thumbnail sketch of the FAQ. The FAQ also includes
>information on Lawsuits, changes in funding due to membership policies
>and official policies as stated by the Headquarters. I don't actually
>have the FAQ on hand, but this is what I remember from it.
>
>If anyone would like a copy of this FAQ, I would be happy to forward
>it to you when I get access to it again. (Monday)
The FAQ is *very* dated. I've sent the "manager" of the list the updated
information, but it has NEVER been included. I've changed where indicated.)
>Gays:
>BSA:If a scout or leader states that they are homosexual or are found to
>have engaged in homosexual activity (anywhere) BSA will kick them out of BSA
>and blacklist them from the organization. If the scout has received an Eagle
>BSA will take it away from you even if you declare that you are Homosexual
>after you have left scouting.
The BSA's policy is to bar membership to those whom state that they are
homosexual or whom have been PROSECUTED of engaging in homosexual activity
anywhere. The current policy also allows for the chartered partner
organization (that is the organization that "owns" the Scouting unit and has
seeked a charter (read that "permission") from the BSA to run one or several
of it's programs) to remove from membership ANYONE it feels do not represent
the tenants of the Scout Oath and Law (part of which states items to the
effect of "...a Scout is clean..." and "...to keep myself physically fit,
mentally awake and MORALLY STRAIGHT (my emphasis, not the BSA's)".
In the history of the BSA, only eight EAGLE SCOUT BADGES have been "retained"
by the organization, and not ONE of them was because of homosexual conduct or
prosecution. Please note that the BSA considers ALL Eagle Scouts important
to their program, and that once a Eagle, you remain a Eagle until *you*
deem it neccessary not to be identified as such. Please also note that there
are approproximately 86 Eagle Scouts in federal prisons, and not a single one
of them have had their Eagle Scout Badges "retained". Finally, the Eagle Scout
Badge, like ALL badges and insignia, books and materials, are the property of
the BSA and may be retained from anyone at anytime the BSA feel like it. This
has ONLY been done in several sexual abuse cases, to prevent the convicted
sexual offender from going "back into business", but as far as I know, it has
NEVER been done to a gay or lesbian person (or to a straight person, for that
matter) whom was NOT involved in a sexual act with a youth member of the BSA.
>GSUSA has a policy that what people due in their private lives are their
>business. Of course if leaders are found to have engaged in sexual activity
>while on a GSUSA activity they will be disciplined. I believe that the same
>would follow between two GSUSA youth.
>God:
>BSA: If a scout or leader states that they are Atheist, the same thing will
>happen as if they said they were Homosexual.
This really depends upon the local Council's policy. As I've stated several
times on the Rec.Scouting list, fellow brothers, the BSA is NOT this large
monolithic organization that passes laws down demanding that they be followed.
Each of the 417 local Councils, as well as the Direct Service Council that
serves youth worldwide, have the right to do several things to the policy.
One is to follow EXACTLY what the National office recommends, which is
prudent policy. Two, is to modify the policy according to the wishes of the
local Council Executive Board (which explains the disparity between local
Councils in California, with more "openness" than those in the Bible belt).
In this way, local VOLUNTEERS aided and assisted by their professional staffs
chart out a policy which reflects the mission and spirit of the National
policy. Another way would be simply to IGNORE the National policy until a issue
comes forth in which they have to deal with it. Several local Councils do just
that, hoping and praying that nobody wants to "fight the system" enough. Some
get by...most have to confront the policy.
Saying all of that, it is highly likely that those members that don't profess
a belief in SOMETHING (god, trees, the universe, Charlie Chan, El-Kabong (just
checking if you're still with me here....heheheh) ) in SOMETHING, will be
asked to leave the program. This is unfortunate, but part of the Scouting
experience IS the idea of being able to recognize that you are not a lonely
cog in the nation called America on the continent of North America, on the
planet Earth in the solar system Milky Way! SOMETHING or SOMEONE (take your
pick of your deity) placed you here for a specific period of time for a
specific purpose. Scouting, unlike school, places a high preminum on
self-concept and self-deterimination, and if you don't have some concept of
a "higher force or state of nature" than yourself, you are living in a dream
world. (please, no flames...I'm only trying to EXPLAIN this....)
>GSUSA: At the most recent GSUSA convention the following was passed:
>The GSUSA promise will keep God in the promise, however the individual
>Girl Scout may state the promise substituting for God (Ex. Allah, or the
>creator) or entirely drop reference to God.
Which, in many BSA leaders' minds, lets the girls off the hook as to what
guides their lives and what "inner resource" they can garner when one is on
the trail and she's cold, wet, and miserable. She can only holler "Mamma"
now, since nobody in her Troop bothered to remember that they came from
SOMEBODY or SOMETHING more powerful than their mother (and yes, I *do* feel
that my mother is as powerful as they come...believe me, once you've been hit
with one of HER shoes, you REMEMBER...but she is NOT my "inner resource" when
things get rough and I'm on my last rope)!!
>Girls:
>BSA: Girls can join Explorer Scouts onlyand Women can hold any position
>other than Scoutmaster or Pack Leader. Women can for example serve as
>a District or Council Executive.
How about the following: Girls since 1971 can become members of Explorer Posts
or Ships as well as associate members of Varsity Scout Teams. Women can hold
ANY volunteer position in ANY unit in ANY local Council. In 1990, women can
become members of the Order of the Arrow (the previous all-male Scouting
honorary society of campers). Since 1975, females can become Professional
Scouters and as of 1990 (the latest figures I have on hand), there are 113
female professionals in the professional pool of 2774 (yeah, I know, small
numbers...but some of my female APO brothers need to be knocking on the doors
of those local Councils, because that avenue of service is WIDE OPEN for you)!
Since 1990 also, we have over 3000 female Scoutmasters or Assistant
Scoutmasters registered and over 2500 females are serving as District or
Council Commissioners (the volunteer service counterpart to the professional
District Executive). Girls may earn the Exploring Achievement Award (which
since it's inception in 1978, 566 females have earned it compared to 421 male
Explorers), the highest youth award in Exploring. In 1990, there were 19
holders of the Quartermaster Award, the highest award that Sea Exploring
can present to a youth member and 18 of them were awarded to female members.
As far as camping is concerned, females and males CAN and DO sleep in the same
campsites, provided that there are two female adults (one of which MUST be a
registered adult and both are recommended to be registered) and there are two
male adults (one again MUST be registered with both recommended to be) present
during the ENTIRE camping experience. There must be clearly divided facilities
for boys and girls and adults can NOT bathe or take showers in places where
youth members (boys OR girls) take showers or bathe at. There are other
policies which are covered in the BSA's Youth Protection Plan (and which I
recommend that ALL APO chapters conduct as part of chapter business during the
fall or spring...it's just common sence and *if you share the evening with
others that work with youth (not necessarily BSA youth.....ANY YOUTH) it could
be a worthwhile period of service to the community!!* )
Girls still CANNOT become members of Boy Scout Troops nor Cub Scout Packs.
Nor can they earn the Eagle Scout Badge as an Explorer.
>GSUSA: Boys are not allowed. Men can serve in any position. However
>I believe that in any camping situation there must be at least one
>adult female.
>Personal Note: If BSA rules on Atheists and Homosexuals were made
>the same as GSUSA rules, I would be willing to support BSA nationally
>again. I do continue to support on the individual troop level.
I don't agree with many of the BSA's policies, Randy. However, as a member of
the BSA, I have to work within the program to effect any changes, and I
recommend that to others that feel the same way. Personally, although you and
others in our Fraternity that are taking this brave stand proudly and because
you feel that your personal removal from the BSA will effect a change,
please don't kid yourselves. The BSA has been around for almost 90 years.
They have based their policies on the principles...those SAME principles...
that we pledge our loyality to: the Scout Oath and Law. Those principles were
good enough for our Founders, whom looked at the Scout Oath and Law not as this
unbendable, unwielding set of "demands". Remember, during our Founder's time,
the BSA in many places in our nation, especially in the South and Central parts
of the USA, were segegated. I would not be welcomed as a brother for many
years to come if it was not for our fellow brothers, whom worked WITHIN the
Fraternity to make this happen. Same for all of our female brothers (I still
cannot get over that word to describe folks like Riz whom is more a sister than
a brother...but, oh well...). We all worked WITHIN the Fraternity to erase all
sexual lines too....
And it HAS to be that way with the BSA. While those working and protesting
outside of the program have their points, we inside the program need to
understand ALL sides of this complex set of issues and be able to compromise
where need be and hold out for what we deem necessary.
I didn't intend on this to be a one-sided discussion, and I am sure that you
and other brothers will give me your passioned responses to this issue. I
welcome them, as I do ALL issues that I talk about. I wanted to respond
however, to "set the BSA record straight" because many of my fellow brothers
have NEVER been in Scouting, don't really understand the "politics" of these
issues and because the information you provided was a little out of date and
out of step with current Boy Scouts of America policies.
I don't speak for the BSA officially......I just happen, as you and several
others already know, to have been in the right places at the right times
doing the right things....but I do try to present their points of view when
I feel that they are not getting "their say" out.
Brother Randy, I sincerely hope that you can find your way back to all of us
that are trying to make a difference in the lives of youth and other adults
through Scouting. Until then, *I* will ALWAYS have space at my campfires for
you and any other Brother of mine that wants to sit there, in uniform or not!
always in Leadership, ready for Service, forever yours in Friendship,
Settummanque!
Mike L. Walton
Scouter et al.
Greenwood, Kentucky
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( Settummanque, the blackeagle... ) )
( (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (among other "endearing" names) ( )
( AIS/MR Recreation/Leisure Specialist, Lifeskills Inc. ___)_ )
( Phone 502-782-7992 (home) 502-842-2274 (office) |-=-|] )
( 3201-D Cave Springs Avenue -- Greenwood, KY 42104-4439 -------- )
( WALTOML@WKUVX1 / "No such thing as strong coffee, only weak people" )
( KYBLKEAGLE@AOL.COM (America Online) / (available Scouting speaker) )
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