[23088] in APO-L
Re: [APO-L] APO and constitutional rights
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Mark Allen Stratton)
Fri Nov 1 06:29:22 2002
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 06:29:18 -0500
Reply-To: Mark Allen Stratton <mark_stratton@YAHOO.COM>
From: Mark Allen Stratton <mark_stratton@YAHOO.COM>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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In several cases regarding student newspapers, the Supreme Court has =
ruled that the rights of students are afforded less protection than =
others. The significant point, though, is that the Court has ruled that =
the rights of students aren't the same as others.
Mark
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Juan Carlos Alicea=20
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [APO-L] APO and constitutional rights
I don't know what the case is with higher education, but secondary =
schools *must* provide equal access and rights to a student led group if =
there are any officially recognized non-curricular student groups =
(classic example is a chess club; basically any group that is not =
directly related to the curriculum). There is the issue that secondary =
school is compulsory, whereas college is not.
This right in secondary schools was established in 1985(?) by the =
Equal Access Act and upheld by the Supreme Court in 1990 (I forget the =
name of the case). It can be used for nearly any type of student-led =
club; I've run across it establishing a Bible club in my junior high =
school.
YiLFS,
-Juan Carlos Alicea
Alpha Chi
MIT Class of 2005
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:05:01 EST
The illustrious Buddha Buck <bmbuck@14850.COM> declared
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
On the subject of: Re: [APO-L] APO and constitutional rights
> Vehlow, Richard wrote:
> > Question: If it is a constitutional right to be able to peacefully
> > assemble, then isn't it technically a violation of the =
Constitution for
> > a school, especially a public college, to bar the organization of
> > fraternities without due cause, such as a prior or existing =
incident of
> > hazing in the fraternities in question?
>
> Nope...
>
> Governmental organizations can control the use of their facilities, =
use
> of their funds, an their choice of affiliation without violating the
> constitution. For instance, it is entirely legal for a post office =
to
> close its doors at night, or to tell a group that they can't hold a
> meeting in the lobby, etc. The post office grounds are government
> property, not a public space.
>
> If the post office provides meeting space, even for a fee, then the =
post
> office is spending government money supporting the organizations =
that
> utilize that meeting space. The laws concerning the spending of
> government money may very well have limitations on the sort of
> organizations the post office can support -- for instance, it may
> prohibit the use of post office funds to promote =
non-abstinance-based
> sex education for teenagers, which would prohibit a safe-sex =
workshop
> aimed at teens to be given on post office property. In any event, =
the
> post office is not obligated to provide space for organizations to
> peacefully assemble.
>
> A public school is in a similar position as the post office. They =
are
> not obligated to provide recognition, support, or funding to
> organizations -- and in some cases, are prohibited from doing so. =
It is
> generally the policy at many public schools that first amendment
> issues prevent the funding of political or religious-based student
> groups, for instance. So a public school is under no obligation to
> provide support for, recognition of, or services to fraternal
> organizations if it chose not to.
>
> Private schools have even fewer restrictions. The only restrictions
> they face (besides general laws) come from the strings attached to =
the
> funding they may receive from the Government. Title IX is a perfect
> example here -- Title IX sets various conditions of gender equity on =
the
> ability to receive federal funds for education. A school that wants
> those funds (which includes Federal Student Aid packages) must =
adhere to
> those conditions. But other than that, private schools are private
> organisations, and can affiliate with anyone they so choose, under
> whatever conditions they desire. They certainly aren't required to
> affiliate with fraternities.
>
> If, however, an organization decided to call itself a fraternity and
> open its new membership only to students, but did not advertise on
> campus, or meet on campus, or solicit the school for funds, or claim
> affiliation, or request any services from the campus, then I don't =
think
> a public school could ban students from joining and supporting the
> organization. Private schools, however, probably could.
>
> For the record, I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.
>
> Buddha Buck
>
>
> >
> > -Rich Vehlow
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In several cases regarding student =
newspapers, the=20
Supreme Court has ruled that the rights of students are afforded less =
protection=20
than others. The significant point, though, is that the Court has =
ruled=20
that the rights of students aren't the same as others.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Djcalicea@MIT.EDU href=3D"mailto:jcalicea@MIT.EDU">Juan =
Carlos=20
Alicea</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DAPO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU=20
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 31, =
2002 5:12=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [APO-L] APO and=20
constitutional rights</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I don't know what the case is with higher education, =
but=20
secondary schools *must* provide equal access and rights to a student =
led=20
group if there are any officially recognized non-curricular student =
groups=20
(classic example is a chess club; basically any group that is not =
directly=20
related to the curriculum). There is the issue that secondary =
school is=20
compulsory, whereas college is not.<BR>This right in secondary schools =
was=20
established in 1985(?) by the Equal Access Act and upheld by the =
Supreme Court=20
in 1990 (I forget the name of the case). It can be used for =
nearly any=20
type of student-led club; I've run across it establishing a Bible club =
in my=20
junior high school.<BR><BR>YiLFS,<BR>-Juan Carlos Alicea<BR>Alpha =
Chi<BR>MIT=20
Class of =
2005<BR><BR>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>On Thu, 31 Oct 2002=20
16:05:01 EST<BR>The illustrious Buddha Buck <<A=20
href=3D"mailto:bmbuck@14850.COM">bmbuck@14850.COM</A>> =
declared<BR>To: =20
<A =
href=3D"mailto:APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU">APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU</A><BR>=
On=20
the subject of: Re: [APO-L] APO and constitutional rights<BR><BR>> =
Vehlow,=20
Richard wrote:<BR>> > Question: If it is a constitutional right =
to be=20
able to peacefully<BR>> > assemble, then isn't it technically a=20
violation of the Constitution for<BR>> > a school, especially a =
public=20
college, to bar the organization of<BR>> > fraternities without =
due=20
cause, such as a prior or existing incident of<BR>> > hazing in =
the=20
fraternities in question?<BR>><BR>> Nope...<BR>><BR>> =
Governmental=20
organizations can control the use of their facilities, use<BR>> of =
their=20
funds, an their choice of affiliation without violating the<BR>>=20
constitution. For instance, it is entirely legal for a post =
office=20
to<BR>> close its doors at night, or to tell a group that they =
can't hold=20
a<BR>> meeting in the lobby, etc. The post office grounds are =
government<BR>> property, not a public space.<BR>><BR>> If =
the post=20
office provides meeting space, even for a fee, then the post<BR>> =
office is=20
spending government money supporting the organizations that<BR>> =
utilize=20
that meeting space. The laws concerning the spending of<BR>>=20
government money may very well have limitations on the sort of<BR>> =
organizations the post office can support -- for instance, it =
may<BR>>=20
prohibit the use of post office funds to promote =
non-abstinance-based<BR>>=20
sex education for teenagers, which would prohibit a safe-sex =
workshop<BR>>=20
aimed at teens to be given on post office property. In any =
event,=20
the<BR>> post office is not obligated to provide space for =
organizations=20
to<BR>> peacefully assemble.<BR>><BR>> A public school is in =
a=20
similar position as the post office. They are<BR>> not =
obligated to=20
provide recognition, support, or funding to<BR>> organizations -- =
and in=20
some cases, are prohibited from doing so. It =
is<BR>> =20
generally the policy at many public schools that first =
amendment<BR>>=20
issues prevent the funding of political or religious-based =
student<BR>>=20
groups, for instance. So a public school is under no obligation=20
to<BR>> provide support for, recognition of, or services to=20
fraternal<BR>> organizations if it chose not to.<BR>><BR>> =
Private=20
schools have even fewer restrictions. The only =
restrictions<BR>> they=20
face (besides general laws) come from the strings attached to =
the<BR>>=20
funding they may receive from the Government. Title IX is a=20
perfect<BR>> example here -- Title IX sets various conditions of =
gender=20
equity on the<BR>> ability to receive federal funds for =
education. A=20
school that wants<BR>> those funds (which includes Federal Student =
Aid=20
packages) must adhere to<BR>> those conditions. But other =
than that,=20
private schools are private<BR>> organisations, and can affiliate =
with=20
anyone they so choose, under<BR>> whatever conditions they =
desire. =20
They certainly aren't required to<BR>> affiliate with=20
fraternities.<BR>><BR>> If, however, an organization decided to =
call=20
itself a fraternity and<BR>> open its new membership only to =
students, but=20
did not advertise on<BR>> campus, or meet on campus, or solicit the =
school=20
for funds, or claim<BR>> affiliation, or request any services from =
the=20
campus, then I don't think<BR>> a public school could ban students =
from=20
joining and supporting the<BR>> organization. Private =
schools,=20
however, probably could.<BR>><BR>> For the record, I am not a =
lawyer,=20
nor do I play one on TV.<BR>><BR>> Buddha =
Buck<BR>><BR>><BR>>=20
><BR>> > -Rich Vehlow<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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