[20395] in APO-L
Fwd: [Re: [[APO-L] 2 Fraternities, All-Male, etc.]]
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Jesse Bridges)
Tue Mar 30 21:38:05 1999
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:10:05 EST
Reply-To: Jesse Bridges <jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
From: Jesse Bridges <jaybee3@NETSCAPE.NET>
To: APO-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU
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Received: from 204.68.24.35 by www0f via web-mailer(M3.0.0.30) on Tue Mar 30 22:34:53 GMT 1999
Date: 30 Mar 99 17:34:53 EST
From: Jesse Bridges <jaybee3@netscape.net>
To: Mark Stratton <stratton@INDY.NET>
Subject: Re: [[APO-L] 2 Fraternities, All-Male, etc.]
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Mark Stratton <stratton@INDY.NET> wrote:
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Brothers,
(Mark Said)
First, I cannot conceive how we could have two organizations as one; perh=
aps
the thought just escapes me, or perhaps I "just don't get it." Tell me h=
ow,
and I ask this in all sincerity, such an organization would be managed,
administered, etc. I'd really like to know because, from the surface, it=
seems that it would be virtually impossible. =
(Jesse)
Because it would not be a separate organization as a whole, you would kee=
p all
the National Officers the same. The change would come at the Regional an=
d
Sectional levels. A frist the regions would be huge because of how few
chapters we have right now. You would have these regional and sectional
positions filled with people who genuialy would want to see the success o=
f
these chapters. Because right now you have pople voting on the future of=
All-male chapters who see now use for them. And I don't think that that =
is
accurate representation.
(Mark Said)
I think back to some of the words of our Fraternity and the symbolism of =
our
Crest, our Key, our Motto, our Handclasp, and those other symbols that
represent the great Principles and people of our organization. They STAN=
D for
something - ONE organization, not two, ONE set of goals, not two.
(Jesse)
All the symbolism would remain the same if so desired. The thing is that=
this
would open the door to create addition symbolism that would closely relat=
e to
coed chapters and one that would relate to all-male chapters. Do you kno=
w
that at one time the was a sweetheart pin that you could order fro the
national office. You are holding on to a environment created by pro coed=
people with the assumption that Frank Reed Horton would have created this=
organization within in your own parameters, instead of looking at it for =
what
it was. I am merely stating the creation of a branch of Alpha Phi Omega =
that
would be simular to where this organization
from, yet you cannot see the use of a fraternity as it was existing for h=
alf a
century, man.
(Mark Said)
Second, I hear time and again how Frank Reed Horton founded this Fraterni=
ty as
all-male. Why would I dispute something which is factually true? Think =
of
the times, though - how likely would it have been that he could have crea=
ted a
FRATERNAL organization that included both men and women? Not likely. =
(Jesse)
I have heard this argument once before. Thinking of how Frank Reed Horto=
n
likley would have created a coed organization. You have to look at how A=
lpha
Phi Omega was conceived. The first Idea that came to FRH, came during
wartime. Men and women could have been there in the war, but I keep goin=
g. =
Frank reed Horton saw young men geeting into trouble while on leave. I d=
on't
have the statistics, but what type of trouble? The same type type of tro=
uble
that I can not see military women getting into. But I'll go further. Fr=
ank
Reed Horton went by what he saw before him. It involved men getting into=
trouble and then he began to shape his ideas around that vision. His ini=
tial
purpose was to give young men a standard of manhood that would withstand =
the
test of time. At this time, females were not in the plan. Then when he =
got
back to the state he saw what he was looking for in the boy scout movemen=
t. =
He wanted to "Follow on the heels" of what the boy scouts tried to accomp=
lish.
He wanted to teach young men aspects of manhood that will help them face=
life. Now if you are beginning to shut down the attraction to this
organization by young men that desires to be in a All male fraternity in
college. Then you are working against the very thing that Frank Reed Hor=
ton
was motivated to create for.
(Mark Said)
And given his GRAND purpose to give people the right start in life, by
"holding before them a standard of manhood that would withstand the test =
of
time," it would have been nearly impossible for him to do that by startin=
g
with a broad scope. =
(Jesse)
The old book does not say "to give people" it specifically states, to gi=
ve
"young men" the right start in life by holding before them a standard of
manhood that would withstand the test of time. The scope of the creation=
of
this fraternity does not have to include anything but what the founder ha=
d in
mind. My thing is, why halt what he has accomplished. Sure you can incl=
ude
females into the fraternity, but why would you force females into the
fraternity? Why would make it so that if a group of young men came toget=
her,
prohibit them upon entering unless they make a female want to call hersel=
f a
brother. To me that is where you go against the wishes of what Frank Ree=
d
Horton desired for young men. You would rather turn them away than accep=
t
them into an already mostly female organizations.
(Mark Said)
The principles that our Founding Brothers set before us, nearly 75 years =
ago,
apply to ALL individuals, of all races, all genders, and all walks of lif=
e who
choose to enter into our ranks. =
(Jesse)
The first statement has to be wrong. If the statement was as easy as sta=
ted
then there would be no stipulations on entering this organization. But yo=
u
have several "You Must Have"s that you have to include in that statement =
to be
realistic. =
(Mark Said)
Some might argue that there are other organizations that would be co-ed, =
and
they would be right. And yes, they might offer leadership, friendship, a=
nd
service, I'd agree. But would they offer Leadership, Friendship, and Ser=
vice
as Alpha Phi Omega does? EVERYONE has the capacity to be a leader, to be=
a
friend, and to be of service, and Alpha Phi Omega offers a unique way to =
do
that. =
(Jesse)
Mark, everything you stated in this section is true. But nobody consider=
s
this. Manhood. Young men reach manhood at different times and usually l=
ater
than women reach their maturity. One reason this may be, is the lack of
interest that all men have in attaining this aspect of life. The don't t=
hink
it is important. There are many organizations that teach some form of
leadership, friendship and service and maybe all of those qualities. Eac=
h
organization does it differently. My question is wasn't Alpha Phi Omega,=
Alpha Phi Omega before 1976. Didn't they do something right to make it t=
o
1976. The reason I advocate organization of all-male chapters is that Al=
pha
Phi Omega did this before for young men, was made to do this for young me=
n,
currently have chapters of young men, and have young men wanting to creat=
e
chapters. =
(Mark Siad)
I don't think sending potential members to other organizations is the way=
to
go. And if you feel that it is, why can't *you* go to another organizati=
on
that allows you to remain all male? I don't think THAT is the solution,
either.
(Jesse)
I came to this forum because this is the organization that should allow t=
his
to happen. When you have young men with a desire to create a chapter, an=
d
they can't because a sectional or regional officier do not like thier
petitioning group make up, they have a tendency to go to another organiza=
tion.
So I don't beleive that sending members to another organization is the w=
ay to
go either. But they find friendship leadership service in another
organization, even when they had an initial attraction to Alpha Phi Omega=
=2E We
know that being a Co-ed organization is very popular, but so is being in =
an
all male chapter. We have a blueprint for creating a manhood in young me=
n. =
We aleady the demand, why not create the supply. This is why I say give=
organization to the young men under a separate branch of Alpha Phi Omega.=
=
Right now we have separate branches APO-USA, APO-Canada, APO-Phil Fratern=
ity,
APO-Phil Sorority. Why not have something for the intitial purpose that =
we
had and currently have today. Young men without organization.
(Mark Said)
Third, I'll go on record here as virtually NOTHING has a recorded vote at=
the
National Convention. I firmly believe that delegates should stand behind=
their vote, and in particular, the members of the Board of Directors. I =
don't
mean to be critical of them - I just believe (and those of you who know m=
e
know I am completely sincere about this) that LEADERS aren't afraid to st=
and
behind their convictions, even on controversial matters like this. I vot=
ed
for the resolution that, in general, allows all-male chapters to remain
all-male. =
(Jesse)
You have to understand the people that make the decisions for the fratern=
ity
has the best interest of coed chapters, not all male chapters.
So every vote that is passed involving all male chapters typically is a v=
ote
to their demise. That's not accurate representation. To remain all male=
is
fine, but to not allow growth is sterilization, ethinc cleansing, or slow=
death. All male chapter are considered of the fraternity, but it is evid=
ent
that the co-ed side of fraternity is only considrate to their existense o=
nly. =
But no enhancements. Definitely not. "If you don't think like a coed
chapter, then you should not be able to exist and we will limit your grow=
th
until you die on your own." Because of this feeling I have to say wew ar=
e
separate already. Give men food and water and set me adrift on a raft, I=
would rather exist and be able to organize myself and be who I am than to=
be
made to be who I am not. =
=
(Mark Said)
I am still not convinced that having all-male chapters on co-ed campuses =
is
good for the FRATERNITY; it may be good for those chapters, but I don't t=
hink
that's true for the Fraternity as a whole. =
(Jesse)
If we were able to survive 50 years being all male, with phenominal growt=
h,
how can giving organization to all male chapters be bad for the fraternit=
y? =
How can you assume that it would be bad. Right now there is not enough
consideration to all male chapters. All male chapters do exist but when =
they
speak who will listen? =
(Mark Said)
I think those chapters should make efforts to integrate anyone, women
included, who meet the requirements for membership, REGARDLESS of gender.=
=
(Jesse)
This shows that their is no interest in you for them as an all male chapt=
er. =
It makes me think that the actual charter is more coveted than the views =
of
the people in that chapter. =
(Mark Said)
I voted FOR the resolution because I am still not convinced that suddenly=
forcing a chapter to go co-ed serves any useful purpose, either. Perhaps=
a
delay in implementation of two years, perhaps some other delaying mechani=
sm -
I'm not sure. But I don't think the solution is just as simple as saying=
, "Go
co-ed or go home." That's not fair to those Brothers in those chapters. =
=
(Jesse)
Thanks, I Think? Wishing to be fair would be to allow view that are favo=
rable
to there chapter to be of assistence to direction they want =
for there future. A delay in implementation is saying, "we do not want y=
ou
kind, but we will let you stay awhile. Don't unpack anything just yet." =
Giving all-male chapter organization is giving them hope. Is that what i=
s
trying to be extinguished?
(Mark Said) =
Somewhere down the road, I honestly believe, there has to be some middle
ground, and I just don't know what that is. =
(Jesse)
If it came as idea, it may not get exceptence. Because people of co-ed
chapter are really having problems with this simple idea. The kicker is =
this,
this Idea doesn't reduce the size of coed's huge chapter numbers.
You force your desires on people that has their own, when you do not prov=
ide
support to their views. Giving organization to young men has got to be A=
lpha
Phi Omega-like. It is the only real action that comes close to duplicati=
ng
what Frank Reed Horton tried to do, and accomplished. =
With that thought how can you not let APO-AMC exist. =
(Mark Said)
But for now, leave the chapters as they are. =
Times will change, attitudes will change, and chapters will come and go,
whether they are all male or co-ed. =
(Jesse)
"Times will change, attitudes will change, and coed chapters will come an=
d all
male chapters will go." This is the big plan. "Phase out hopefully with=
out
down-sizing." "Let them die, cause they will die eventually", is so clos=
e to
cruxifiction, but only in terms of slow death. "How can we let them know=
we
don't want them without really really telling them?" is the real dilima. =
Okay
maybe I'm assuming that. But giving organization to all-male chapter at =
least
lends a voice to their point of veiw. =
If I read you correctly, if all male chapters had a veiw in their favor i=
t
would get drowned by the sea of people that are not desiring for them to =
have
a functional existence. Fraternities have been created this way, I know.=
But
people that are already in an organization should have some representatio=
n. =
If pro coed people really wanted to pull the trigger, they could have a w=
hile
back. But they have not. I think it has to do with where this organizat=
ion
came from. The action to become all male, then become coed and kick out =
all
all male chapters cold act. But equally as cold is to turn away any men =
that
want to establish a chapter. That is completely opposite of Frank Reed H=
orton
desired when he had an opinion, I assure you he would not have done that =
when
he was alive in his day, so why not allow what he wanted anymore?. =
I say that there are several separate opinions, several separate idea, an=
d
several separate traditions. You can attempt to make room for all of the=
m
,which would be totally unrealistic. But it is realistic to make room fo=
r
those ideas, opinions, and traditions for one that is distingtively diffe=
rent,
brought up from the very past of this organization.
I am in no way taking down to anyone here and Mark, you views are differe=
nt
than mine, yet you are still brother and I respect your views. I don't e=
xpect
anyone in this forum to be open minded about this. =
I just asking to give all male chapters a chance,by giving them organizat=
ion.
Also read:
http://members.tripod.com/~JBSkeet/APO-APQ.html =
Jesse "JayBEE" Bridges
President
"Brothers of the Rising Sun, Atlanta Chapter"
Alumni
Alcorn State University
Alpha Alpha Lambda Chapter
Fall '80
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