[105479] in Cypherpunks
Re: most of what govts do can be done by business, and done better (Re: How to solve the tax problem w/o anarchy or force)
daemon@ATHENA.MIT.EDU (Soren)
Thu Nov 12 18:18:17 1998
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:59:46 -0500
From: Soren <sorens@workmail.com>
To: Jim Burnes - Denver <jim.burnes@ssds.com>
CC: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
Reply-To: Soren <sorens@workmail.com>
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Jim Burnes - Denver wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Soren wrote:
>
> > There is a real live example of this kind of transition. New Zealand.
> >
>
> much interesting info deleted
>
> What kind of constitution and bill of rights does New Zealand have?
Check this out.
>
>
> Do I have the right of gun ownership to protect myself or stop
> tyrannical takeover?
That's very funny. The US, the country that allows most gun ownership (in
the 1st world), is the most in need of that right to defend against both
illegal and legal criminals. So much for the value of the 2nd amendment.
To answer your question though, yes you have the right to buy a gun, just as
you have the right to buy a car (a far more lethal instrument in general).
You are held to account for what you do with it however (irrespective of
whether its a gun or car). If you kill someone, then you are generally
arrested and tried for either murder or manslaughter. Manslaughter is the
usual charge if you shoot someone who was threatening to kill you. It all
depends on how successful they were in the attempt. Several cases of pissed
off people shooting neighbours who were merely harassing them, and getting
acquitted of any charges, exist. Something like 10 murders a year and
climbing (fueled by the gangsta rap lovers amongst the maori, mostly. Thank
you USA!!). When most violent crime is of the form of being beaten up in a
bar, or surprizing a burglar and getting threatened with a club or knife,
responding with lethal force is considered not to be very sporting.
Hand guns are rare, but there are hand gun clubs. Seems a lot like a waste
of energy to me, preparing for an event that is very unlikely to occur in
your lifetime. Most gun owners are hunters, shooting pig, deer, possums,
elk .... Permits are not required. Bow hunting is also quite popular.
New Zealand is a parliamentary democracy in the english tradition, with only
one house. Recently, MMP (similar to Germany's) system of representation,
was passed by referendum. This means that any candidate and/or party that
gets 5% of a popular vote, gets a seat in the parliament. The more 5%s you
get, the more seats. Each citizen gets 2 votes. One for a candidate, and
one for a party. There are currently 6(ish) major political parties. Under
MMP, proportional representation means that the the elected candidates have
to form a coalition government. I.e. they all get together and make/break
friendships until a clear winner/majority is declared (a very public
process). If a clear winner cannot be found, another election is held until
something gells. Once that happens, the majority coalition designates a
'prime' minister and a cabinet of ministers, to call the shots. This is
very unlike a presidential executive, in that these ministers are, in
effect, hired by the coalition government and not directly elected to
office. Prime ministers do not have to get impeached to remove them from
office. If the majority coalition gets P.O'ed with any minister's track
record, he gets fired. If the population gets P.O'ed with the winning
coalition, the coalitions will change to form a new government and new
cabinet, to suit the mood(swing) of the populace. This is a very adversarial
system for a government to operate under. There are virtually no
bi(multi-)partisan activities (the last was the economic revolution in
1986). Generally, the opposition is always angling to destabilize the
current majority coalition, with lots of rhetoric flying in the press.
Consequently, the majority coalition has to keep on their toes and please
the population. Sometimes this leads to some skullduggery and dishonest
activities. The population (and press) have exactly zero tolerance for
crooked politicians. Typically, a Member of Parliament who gets out of
line, is out of office within the month, often the week. Ergo, no real need
for guns when you have a government that can be dissolved at any time by
either a new majority being formed, or the population calling for an
election. Unpopular laws are generally ignored, or become the cause for a
new election. This happens on a regular basis.
I always had a sneaking suspicion that basing the US republic on the roman
model, was not such a good idea. Look what happened to them. (Hail
Clinton!, long live the emperor! Only until the present emergency lasts,
honest! Those huns (drug dealers) and vandals (terrorists) have to be
defeated first).
Its hard to compare, how NZ's system works in practise, with the
self-aggrandizing and self-important poll-doll system in the US (bread and
circuses). Mostly politicians in NZ are the guys who live next door, and
who you go fishing with. They all have a distaste for overinflated egos.
This is deeply ingrained in the national psyche, often to a fault (tall
poppy syndrome). It is a nation of fiercely rugged individualism (even at
its collectivist height in the 1970s). You are still considered to be a
wuss if you didn't build your own home, or don't fix your own car or
computer (or write your own crypto?), or have your own business, although
this is changing under the onslaught of US cultural imperialism and
hamburger diplomacy. As it's an island nation, 1 in 5 people has a boat, and
generally use it to go fishing. Again, no permits necessary. A lot of
people also build their own boats, although this is changing ... I suppose
the closest comparison in the US, would be to think of it as a cross between
Alaska and Hawaii.
Hope that answers your questions. You should look around the NZ web sites
for more detail, or better yet, take a month or two and go and check it
out. Christmas is fast approaching, which is the start of summer and the
holiday season, all rolled into one.
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Jim Burnes - Denver wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Soren wrote:
<P>> There is a real live example of this kind of transition. New
Zealand.
<BR>>
<P>much interesting info deleted
<P>What kind of constitution and bill of rights does New Zealand have?</BLOCKQUOTE>
Check <A HREF="http://www.stats.govt.nz/statsweb.nsf/ccd7b3669950e1664c25639b0082eb22?OpenView">this</A>
out.
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<P>Do I have the right of gun ownership to protect myself or stop
<BR>tyrannical takeover?</BLOCKQUOTE>
That's very funny. The US, the country that allows most gun ownership
(in the 1st world), is the most in need of that right to defend against
both illegal and legal criminals. So much for the value of the 2nd amendment.
<P>To answer your question though, yes you have the right to buy a gun,
just as you have the right to buy a car (a far more lethal instrument in
general). You are held to account for what you do with it however (irrespective
of whether its a gun or car). If you kill someone, then you are generally
arrested and tried for either murder or manslaughter. Manslaughter is the
usual charge if you shoot someone who was threatening to kill you. It all
depends on how successful they were in the attempt. Several cases of pissed
off people shooting neighbours who were merely harassing them, and getting
acquitted of any charges, exist. Something like 10 murders a year
and climbing (fueled by the gangsta rap lovers amongst the maori, mostly.
Thank you USA!!). When most violent crime is of the form of being beaten
up in a bar, or surprizing a burglar and getting threatened with a club
or knife, responding with lethal force is considered not to be very sporting.
<BR>Hand guns are rare, but there are hand gun clubs. Seems a lot
like a waste of energy to me, preparing for an event that is very unlikely
to occur in your lifetime. Most gun owners are hunters, shooting
pig, deer, possums, elk .... Permits are not required. Bow hunting is also
quite popular.
<P>New Zealand is a parliamentary democracy in the english tradition, with
only one house. Recently, MMP (similar to Germany's) system of representation,
was passed by referendum. This means that any candidate and/or party that
gets 5% of a popular vote, gets a seat in the parliament. The more 5%s
you get, the more seats. Each citizen gets 2 votes. One for
a candidate, and one for a party. There are currently 6(ish) major
political parties. Under MMP, proportional representation means that
the the elected candidates have to form a coalition government. I.e. they
all get together and make/break friendships until a clear winner/majority
is declared (a very public process). If a clear winner cannot be found,
another election is held until something gells. Once that happens, the
majority coalition designates a 'prime' minister and a cabinet of ministers,
to call the shots. This is very unlike a presidential executive,
in that these ministers are, in effect, hired by the coalition government
and not directly elected to office. Prime ministers do not have to
get impeached to remove them from office. If the majority coalition
gets P.O'ed with any minister's track record, he gets fired. If the
population gets P.O'ed with the winning coalition, the coalitions will
change to form a new government and new cabinet, to suit the mood(swing)
of the populace. This is a very adversarial system for a government to
operate under. There are virtually no bi(multi-)partisan activities
(the last was the economic revolution in 1986). Generally, the opposition
is always angling to destabilize the current majority coalition, with lots
of rhetoric flying in the press. Consequently, the majority coalition has
to keep on their toes and please the population. Sometimes this leads
to some skullduggery and dishonest activities. The population (and
press) have exactly zero tolerance for crooked politicians. Typically,
a Member of Parliament who gets out of line, is out of office within the
month, often the week. Ergo, no real need for guns when you have a government
that can be dissolved at any time by either a new majority being formed,
or the population calling for an election. Unpopular laws are generally
ignored, or become the cause for a new election. This happens on a regular
basis.
<P>I always had a sneaking suspicion that basing the US republic on the
roman model, was not such a good idea. Look what happened to them.
(Hail Clinton!, long live the emperor! Only until the present emergency
lasts, honest! Those huns (drug dealers) and vandals (terrorists) have
to be defeated first).
<P>Its hard to compare, how NZ's system works in practise, with the self-aggrandizing
and self-important poll-doll system in the US (bread and circuses).
Mostly politicians in NZ are the guys who live next door, and who you go
fishing with. They all have a distaste for overinflated egos.
This is deeply ingrained in the national psyche, often to a fault (tall
poppy syndrome). It is a nation of fiercely rugged individualism
(even at its collectivist height in the 1970s). You are still considered
to be a wuss if you didn't build your own home, or don't fix your own car
or computer (or write your own crypto?), or have your own business, although
this is changing under the onslaught of US cultural imperialism and hamburger
diplomacy. As it's an island nation, 1 in 5 people has a boat, and generally
use it to go fishing. Again, no permits necessary. A lot of people
also build their own boats, although this is changing ... I suppose
the closest comparison in the US, would be to think of it as a cross between
Alaska and Hawaii.
<P>Hope that answers your questions. You should look around the NZ
web sites for more detail, or better yet, take a month or two and go and
check it out. Christmas is fast approaching, which is the start of
summer and the holiday season, all rolled into one.
<BR> </HTML>
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